Turkish Railway Capacity supply to caucasus
Turkish Railway Capacity supply to caucasus
It's cropped up a few times in the What if section about the Germans pursuing a "southern" strategy that involves attacking Russia through Turkey. So I thought I'd start a thread solely for evaluating the logistical problem in suppling a German army on the Turkish-Russian border.
I have some appreciation of logistics, but I don't claim any knowledge of Turkish railways. So I'm throwing a few questions out there and see what other posters could contribute (I'll do some research and see what I can come up with)
Questions.
Whats the capacity in tons per day of the existing Turkish railway?
- Was it only a single track to the Russian border? What sort of quality? what sort of axel loadings?
How much rolling stock would be required to do this?
- trains running from Germany would require a lot of rolling stock, to maintain the 'pipe' providing supply. The German economy was already drastically sort of rolling stock, so an estimate of how much (% of total rolling stock) would this impact of the Germany economy,
- (maybe barges down the daube across the black sea could be used)
How many divisions would this supply?
I have some appreciation of logistics, but I don't claim any knowledge of Turkish railways. So I'm throwing a few questions out there and see what other posters could contribute (I'll do some research and see what I can come up with)
Questions.
Whats the capacity in tons per day of the existing Turkish railway?
- Was it only a single track to the Russian border? What sort of quality? what sort of axel loadings?
How much rolling stock would be required to do this?
- trains running from Germany would require a lot of rolling stock, to maintain the 'pipe' providing supply. The German economy was already drastically sort of rolling stock, so an estimate of how much (% of total rolling stock) would this impact of the Germany economy,
- (maybe barges down the daube across the black sea could be used)
How many divisions would this supply?
Re: Turksih Railway Capacity supply to caucasus
Following the post war edition of the Dutch encyclopedia "Winkler Prins", on 31 december 1951 ,the total length of the Turkish railways was 7598 km,of which 61 km double-track only .There was also no railway bridge over the Bosporus: everything had to be unloaded and transported by barges.There was one connection with the SU via Kars,but, I don't know if the line stopped at the border,or if it was foing farther into the SU.
Re: Turksih Railway Capacity supply to caucasus
This is their 1941 net:
The net to be used had 3 different origins as this map explains (2011):
The red net allows for a 20t axle load, the pink one 19-20t, and the blue one 17t, so it was pretty decent on that respect.
The khaki one are the old Russian railroads, those were narrow and of varying gauge, any plan to use them would require an upgrade to standard gauge first.
The biggest use would be sidings since it was pretty much all single track, and I have no idea about their density.
This is the best source you are likely to find:
http://www.trainsofturkey.com/w/pmwiki. ... ry/History
Just go to the section for each railroad, at the end you will find the open date for each branch and its axle load. If you check the section for TCDD you will see that the Turks had been investing heavily on their railroads in the decade prior to WW2, in that context I would expect the line to be well maintained.
There were no train ferries in Turkey back then but a "terminal" could be improvised in Istanbul fairly quickly if Italian ferries from the Messina service can be made available. Samsun and Zonguldak would be available for shipping.
The RB expected a single track line to be able to support 10 trains a day, with weights going from 450t to 800t (usually closer to the former). Number of divisions would vary, an artillery-heavy division would consume a lot more in combat than a mountain or even PzDiv, a static PzDiv consumes very little compared to a division with many horses that need to eat regardless...
Some additional statistical info, but this is from 2008, so...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_trans ... nformation
And info on their trains:
http://www.trainsofturkey.com/w/pmwiki. ... Steam#toc4
They had quite a few, but you never have enough.
The net to be used had 3 different origins as this map explains (2011):
The red net allows for a 20t axle load, the pink one 19-20t, and the blue one 17t, so it was pretty decent on that respect.
The khaki one are the old Russian railroads, those were narrow and of varying gauge, any plan to use them would require an upgrade to standard gauge first.
The biggest use would be sidings since it was pretty much all single track, and I have no idea about their density.
This is the best source you are likely to find:
http://www.trainsofturkey.com/w/pmwiki. ... ry/History
Just go to the section for each railroad, at the end you will find the open date for each branch and its axle load. If you check the section for TCDD you will see that the Turks had been investing heavily on their railroads in the decade prior to WW2, in that context I would expect the line to be well maintained.
There were no train ferries in Turkey back then but a "terminal" could be improvised in Istanbul fairly quickly if Italian ferries from the Messina service can be made available. Samsun and Zonguldak would be available for shipping.
The RB expected a single track line to be able to support 10 trains a day, with weights going from 450t to 800t (usually closer to the former). Number of divisions would vary, an artillery-heavy division would consume a lot more in combat than a mountain or even PzDiv, a static PzDiv consumes very little compared to a division with many horses that need to eat regardless...
Some additional statistical info, but this is from 2008, so...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_trans ... nformation
And info on their trains:
http://www.trainsofturkey.com/w/pmwiki. ... Steam#toc4
They had quite a few, but you never have enough.
Re: Turksih Railway Capacity supply to caucasus
If we look at the complete logistic network turkey could offer routes for coastal shipping too.JAG13 wrote:
Samsun and Zonguldak would be available for shipping.
I think we should add waterways to the equation.
So supplies could go down Donau and then follow the black sea coast.
and with Turkey in the Axis the south coast would have been defendable.
And as the German advanced along the East coast of the Black sea, Turkish railroads would be supported by ports in USSR.
(Batum, Poti, Sochi, Novorossiysk et al)
Cheers
/John
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Re: Turksih Railway Capacity supply to caucasus
Ten per day at that load = 8000 tons maximum daily. Numbers for army requirements are all over the range, but here are sime rough estimates. A German 'bare' infantry division without attachments could consume up to 400 tons per day in heavy sustained combat. That would be mostly artillery ammunition. Things like high energy grain for horses, human food, clothing, small arms ammo, medical supplies, vehicle parts.... for a division in operations would be 150 tons per day rough average. If battle is not sustained or intense then a average division requirement might be 250-300 tons per day.JAG13 wrote: Just go to the section for each railroad, at the end you will find the open date for each branch and its axle load. If you check the section for TCDD you will see that the Turks had been investing heavily on their railroads in the decade prior to WW2, in that context I would expect the line to be well maintained.
There were no train ferries in Turkey back then but a "terminal" could be improvised in Istanbul fairly quickly if Italian ferries from the Messina service can be made available. Samsun and Zonguldak would be available for shipping.
The RB expected a single track line to be able to support 10 trains a day, with weights going from 450t to 800t (usually closer to the former). Number of divisions would vary, an artillery-heavy division would consume a lot more in combat than a mountain or even PzDiv, a static PzDiv consumes very little compared to a division with many horses that need to eat regardless...
Consumption for mechanized or motorized divisions is higher what with fuel and more spare parts. 400 to 500 tons per day for 'average' combat.
This does not cover corps & army overhead, a air wing, or the Golden Phesants, naval base units, railway service units, ect... that are over & above the the division logistics load. Just considering the legit corps/army/airwing overhead dividing the total number of battalions & airgroups by division HQ for a 'division' logistics draw suggests around 700 to 800 tons per day. For operation Overlord the BRit/US logistics planners allowed a overall army draw of 900 tons per day per Div HQ. A larger corps/army artillery, engineer, automotor transport, tactical air. support group in the Allied army accounts for most of that difference be tween their 1944 army & a 1941 German army.
So the high number from above, 8,000 tons, would at a minimum allow a army of ten divisions to be supplied properly by rail. Fifteen might be a upper limit. This of course assumes the 8,000 tons per day is a sustainable number, or is not too low, and has no allowance for a high draw by railway service units including extra FLAK.
Unlike the flat plain of Poland, NW Europe, or the USSR bridges are more intimidating. Which leads to questions about the disruption if the enemy air forces knock a few down.
Re: Turksih Railway Capacity supply to caucasus
One of the pages I visited recently looking for info on SeaLion mentioned that in the East there were occasions when a German infantry division used over 1,000 tons a day. Probably involved in some very heavy artillery exchanges. There's also a significant loss factor from what I recall. I.e. if you start out with 1,000 tons at a depot at home significantly less arrives at the pointy end. For some things I seam to recall reading the planning factor was 50%. That could be factory to fox hole though and probably includes things shipped to the wrong place.
Re: Turksih Railway Capacity supply to caucasus
Another factor is the weight of the units themselves. At 5000 tons per day, how many days to transport 3 panzer, 2 motorized and 4 semimotorized infantry divisions, 1941 vintage?
P.S.
Feldgrau's DR page statest that 34000 trainloads were moved east during January - May 1941 for Barbarossa. We should remember THAT was not enough, and the attack was postponed a whole month.
Even if we postulate a very modest size of 10% of the GERMAN attacking force for Barbarossa for the NahOst, 3,000 trainloads would be needed. So we're still talking 6 (optimistic) to 12 months (realistic) for the initial movement of the attacking force, after Inonu et Co are cowed into submission.
P.S.
Feldgrau's DR page statest that 34000 trainloads were moved east during January - May 1941 for Barbarossa. We should remember THAT was not enough, and the attack was postponed a whole month.
Even if we postulate a very modest size of 10% of the GERMAN attacking force for Barbarossa for the NahOst, 3,000 trainloads would be needed. So we're still talking 6 (optimistic) to 12 months (realistic) for the initial movement of the attacking force, after Inonu et Co are cowed into submission.
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Re: Turksih Railway Capacity supply to caucasus
Might it be worth considering that by mid 1941, the really rather primitive....and filled with multiple points of failure...Turkish railway system also happens to come within easy RAF reach of the newly-invaded and Allied Occupied Syria-Lebanon? Yes, an air wing may provide daytime protection - but there's a lot of rail junctions etc. in there that are vulnerable to night raids...
And I hate to think the mess that could be made of that network by a Turkish resistance suitably...networked (sic!)...and supplied by SOE's Force 133 in the Eastern Med! The Allies managed to network and supply Tito's forces and keep the Yugoslavian rail network virtually 100% blocked to the transport of Turkish chromium by that route...what are they not going to be able to do to the Turkish rail network?
And I hate to think the mess that could be made of that network by a Turkish resistance suitably...networked (sic!)...and supplied by SOE's Force 133 in the Eastern Med! The Allies managed to network and supply Tito's forces and keep the Yugoslavian rail network virtually 100% blocked to the transport of Turkish chromium by that route...what are they not going to be able to do to the Turkish rail network?
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...
Re: Turksih Railway Capacity supply to caucasus
Also, there were plenty of good connections with some of the kurd clans. As much 808 as three donkeys could carry and a canteen filled with gold coins will go a looong way. And a highly unmotivated provincial polis with his 10 underlings will stop this?!??
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion
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Re: Turksih Railway Capacity supply to caucasus
Certainly! One notable aspect of the Greek resistance in various locations, particularly Crete, was the degree to which the "enthusiasm" for the struggle against the occupying Axis forces varied on the part of the Greek kapitans...depending on the amount of gold the SOE supplied them with! I wouldn't assume that Turkish resistance leaders would be any less...acquisitive...could carry and a canteen filled with gold coins will go a looong way.
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...
Re: Turksih Railway Capacity supply to caucasus
You really know nothing about Turkey, do you?BDV wrote:Also, there were plenty of good connections with some of the kurd clans. As much 808 as three donkeys could carry and a canteen filled with gold coins will go a looong way. And a highly unmotivated provincial polis with his 10 underlings will stop this?!??
The Turks had a single solution for tribal troubles, mass slaughter, they were not shy about it and quite enthusiastic.
Gold goes a long way, unless you are fond of your village, friends and family. Then is the obvious issue of garrisoning obvious targets...
Re: Turksih Railway Capacity supply to caucasus
JAG13, thanks for the post and information. The map is a great visual. I have one concern. The one map has a date of 2011. Another map on the link is dated I believe 1914. Still another map, which appears to be a cut out from newspaper or other source and is presented above, is difficult to discern between roads and rail lines. Is there a map with railroad details circa 1941? This is good information .
You are correct about the slaughter. I have a number of Armenian friends......who have ancestors slaughtered during the Armenian genocide of 1915.
Woop It Up
You are correct about the slaughter. I have a number of Armenian friends......who have ancestors slaughtered during the Armenian genocide of 1915.
Woop It Up
Re: Turksih Railway Capacity supply to caucasus
1.- How is the Turkish railroad primitive? I would love some sources...phylo_roadking wrote:Might it be worth considering that by mid 1941, the really rather primitive....and filled with multiple points of failure...Turkish railway system also happens to come within easy RAF reach of the newly-invaded and Allied Occupied Syria-Lebanon? Yes, an air wing may provide daytime protection - but there's a lot of rail junctions etc. in there that are vulnerable to night raids...
And I hate to think the mess that could be made of that network by a Turkish resistance suitably...networked (sic!)...and supplied by SOE's Force 133 in the Eastern Med! The Allies managed to network and supply Tito's forces and keep the Yugoslavian rail network virtually 100% blocked to the transport of Turkish chromium by that route...what are they not going to be able to do to the Turkish rail network?
2.- RAF... night precision bombing... not to mention navigation... in 1941.... REALLY???
3.- Syria occupied? So the Germans get Turkey and thn decide to let the British just occupy it? They would just ignore the oilfields just across the border in Iraq?
4.- The Turks had 40+ divisions, not all can be supplied for an offensive, plenty of them available for garrison duty and to sit on top of the Kurds, plus by then they had already captured explosives and uncovered a British spy ring so they were well aware of British intentions.
5.- Serbia and Turkey were 2 VERY different situations and the chromium could and did easily move through a different path.
Last edited by JAG13 on 01 May 2014, 20:25, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Turksih Railway Capacity supply to caucasus
The first map I posted is the 1941 map (not 1914), on the quoted website you can find a larger res version of it in their map section.alltoes wrote:JAG13, thanks for the post and information. The map is a great visual. I have one concern. The one map has a date of 2011. Another map on the link is dated I believe 1914. Still another map, which appears to be a cut out from newspaper or other source and is presented above, is difficult to discern between roads and rail lines. Is there a map with railroad details circa 1941? This is good information .
You are correct about the slaughter. I have a number of Armenian friends......who have ancestors slaughtered during the Armenian genocide of 1915.
Woop It Up
The things the Turks did... very chilling stuff...
Last edited by JAG13 on 01 May 2014, 20:23, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Turksih Railway Capacity supply to caucasus
Sounds reasonable.Carl Schwamberger wrote:
Unlike the flat plain of Poland, NW Europe, or the USSR bridges are more intimidating. Which leads to questions about the disruption if the enemy air forces knock a few down.
re the air forces it was very difficult to bomb a bridge in 1941, even if you did have dive bombers, which IIRC there were little to none close.