LWD wrote:JAG13 wrote:Ok, aniother answer:
LWD wrote:... Care to point out where I am ignoring fact or reason as this implies?
I notice that you avoided answering this question.
so what "facts and reason" are being ignored?
It's layed out pretty well in the FAQ for this board. Now the original questions weren't really what if questions but simply ones related to the capacity of the Turkish rail system. On the other hand if you posit German access to the Turkish rail system it should be clearly defined how they got such access and the definition should be "reasonable". Probably should be in a seperate thread as well.
I courteously reject the content of your post since I believe it baseless and lacking in factual content,
Hardly baselsess or lacking in factual content whatever your beliefs. Either you have not looked at the FAQs in question or do not understand them to make it easier here are links to two important ones:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=77436
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1&t=167937
Your sarcasm is also noted.
in addition to appreciating that its intent is at odds with the spirit of a elevating debate, that is, as evidenced by your indisposition to provide any shred of evidence in order to, in any way, sustain your aforementioned statement.
Quite the opposite. It's hard to have a well reasoned discussion on a topic that is not well defined from the beginning. Simply stateing that something happens is a long way from defining the situation. In this case how and why the Germans would get access to the Turkish rail system is critical and the lack of it means that people will likely be discussing significantly different what ifs and may not even realize it. After the thread continues for more than a few pages like that one simply has chaos. Likewise how do we know if the "what if" is reasonable if it is not well defined. Note that the "reasonable" requirement is in the FAQs.[/quote]
The OP was about logistics, and so was my answer.
Ok, Ill bite...
Turkey was in a difficult position, was an ally of Britain and France but they had failed to provide the promised weapons while demanding they suicide by attacking the axis with ww1 weapons, plus France had been overrun and they have just had first row seats to see the Brits get kicked out of the continent, yet again, so their belief in them had taken a hit.
Now Russia was Turkeys #1 threat and had already made noises about retaking the areas ceded to Turkey after ww1 and finally achieving their centuries old objective of securing the straits so, they were in the same place Bulgaria was early in the year, they can take the German deal and get a chunk of its neighbours plus protection from the Russians, or they can be thrown to the Russians or even be polonized, they would be run over just like the Yugoeslavs and Greeks were, only that pretty much everyone would want a piece of them, the Russians would take the east and eventually the straits (maybe take even the Kurds in) and let the Armenians run amok exacting revenge for the WWI genocide, the Italians would round up their "Empire" by acquiring the coastal areas, France would get Hatay back plus a little extra to make them feel warm and fuzzy for signing the Paris Protocols, even the Iraquis would get a chunk if they so want.
So yeah, they can opose the German and fight, what they cant is survive if they do and they know it, which is why their answer IRL was "we want Iraq or an oil soacked chunk of it" as Papen and Ribbentrop reported, not "we will gladly die for the British in spite of them leaving us on the lurch without the promised weapons". Germany could offer lots of French weapons, a choice of Aegean islands, a potential Crete-Dodecanse exchange and maybe a better deal on Iraqi oil in order to get free passage or joining the axis.
Of course, if they dont join the next day after granting passage to the Germans the Russians would show up and ask for concessions as well with very unpleasant consequences for the Turks if they lack German backing, so joining the axis is the safest option if you are already yielding.
The Russians... the Russians would do the same thing they did after they warned the Germans to stay out of Bulgaria and after they signed their friendship treaty with Yugoeslavia one day before Marita, eat it, they were not ready for war and needed time to prepare which is why they henceforth changed their stance, offered more grain, more materials, ceded on border demarcation issues and basically tried to look as nice as possible to Hitler... and corporal Tack could always offer them better conditions to transit the straits as a palliative, but not bases.
Now the brits, they would harass the Turks with a few bombers and try to send saboteur teams, hardly anything comparable to what the axis could do to them.
The Turks demonstrated to be VERY practical, they took note of Belgrade's treatment by the LW, they knew there was nothing they could no if the Germans really pressed, but Hitler was satisfied with securing his flank in order to launch Barbarossa, he could and planned to deal with the Turks later.
Copy-paste is so exhausting.
