Would the Nazis have still come to power in Germany *without* a prior Bolshevik Revolution in Russia?

[wm]

Actually the Jewish communist leaders faced very little antisemitism in their lives. They were members of local top elites, well educated, relatively wealthy. Their first language was usually Russian or Polish, they had little in common with the "real" Jews. For example:
Leon Trotsky - the son of well-to-do farmers, the Imperial Novorossiysk University dropout.
Yakov Sverdlov - his father was an engraver, four years of high school.
Gregory Zinoviev - his parents were dairy farmers, home educated.
Karl Radek - the son of a civil servant, educated at the Jagiellonian University.
Maxim Litvinov - the son of a banker, high school dropout, joined the Russian Army.
Lev Kamenev - his father was a railway engineer, Moscow University.
Moisei Uritsky - the son of a merchant, University of Kiev.
Grigori Sokolnikov - the son of a doctor, Paris-Sorbonne University.
Rosa Luxemburg - the daughter of a timber trader, University of Zurich.

[T Rex]

Crisis is very important for every ideology. Massive immigration and economy colapse will bring a lot of new people around National Socialist ideas.

[Futurist]

Actually the Jewish communist leaders faced very little antisemitism in their lives. They were members of local top elites, well educated, relatively wealthy. Their first language was usually Russian or Polish, they had little in common with the "real" Jews. For example:
Leon Trotsky - the son of well-to-do farmers, the Imperial Novorossiysk University dropout.
Yakov Sverdlov - his father was an engraver, four years of high school.
Gregory Zinoviev - his parents were dairy farmers, home educated.
Karl Radek - the son of a civil servant, educated at the Jagiellonian University.
Maxim Litvinov - the son of a banker, high school dropout, joined the Russian Army.
Lev Kamenev - his father was a railway engineer, Moscow University.
Moisei Uritsky - the son of a merchant, University of Kiev.
Grigori Sokolnikov - the son of a doctor, Paris-Sorbonne University.
Rosa Luxemburg - the daughter of a timber trader, University of Zurich.

Couldn't some or all of these Bolshevik Jews have still done better in their lives if it wasn't for the anti-Semitism that they might have endured, though? After all, even wealthy people can be subjects of discrimination, racism, prejudice, and hate.

[wm]

Better than being rulers of the largest country on Earth - hardly possible I would say
Isn't this a proof Russia was a land of opportunity? It couldn't have happened anywhere else...

Let's see:
Alexander Parvus - born in a shtetl of Berazino. A son of a blacksmith. After their home was destroyed by fire they moved to Odessa. Then the 19-year-old Parvus traveled to Switzerland, enrolled at the University of Basle, graduated with a doctorate degree. Became friends with Lenin, Trotsky, Rosa Luxemburg.
Moved to Istanbul, became a successful and wealthy arms dealer, then a financial and political adviser of the Young Turks movement. Offered his plan of paralyzing Russia via general strike to the German General Staff.

How many middle class Americans can afford today to study and graduate in Switzerland? How many will become wealthy? Not to mention a world political player? Like this poor Jew from a shit-hole called Byerazino?

[T. A. Gardner]

Actually, if you look at it, the biggest thing in Hitler's favor is the European parliamentary system of apportioning seats in government by percentage of the popular vote. All the Nazi's really need to gain power is sufficient popular votes in an election to be able to form a coalition government with Hitler at its head. In the historical 1932 elections Hitler came to power on a minority of the electorate vote through a coalition.

Once in power, the Nazi's subverted the government and within two years was well on his way to absolute power.

The excuses and reasons that the Nazi's would sell the public to vote for them might change, but they really are not the relevant cause. The parliamentary system Germany had and the apportioning of votes by party gave Hitler power. As a contrast, and not the only contrast, the US two-party system of the same time would have precluded Hitler from power as it is a "winner take all" system. Hindenburg would have been elected and Hitler would have lost in the US system. With the German system of shared power in proportion to votes, Hitler slipped in and once he did he took power and subverted the system into a dictatorship.

[pugsville]

hitler subverted the government a lot quicker than two years.

appointed chancellor 30 jan 1933 within 2 months Germany was effectively a 1 party state with dictatorial powers, and violent suppression of the opposition was well in hand as well as control of police and courts.

Reichstag Fire Decree on 28 February 1933,
Enabling act on 23 March 1933

true the last steps were later but really most of the power was gone effectively in the first 2 months.

night of long knees 30 june 1934
assuming presidents powers 2 august 1934


what separates the US or others from weimar Germany is a lot to do with functioning parliament, courts, police as much as 2 party system. before hitler rule by decree, violent suppression, toleration of para militaries, courts and police being very soft on right wing extremists.

[jabhatta]

It is an extremely tenuous argument to claim that the Bolshevik Revolution was an essential precursor for the rise of Hitler!

The Communist revolution in Russia was irrelevant for Hitler obtaining power in Germany .

To the contrary, the fear created by the Bolshevik seizure of power in Russia and the proclamation of the new Bolshevik rulers that their aim was World revolution was absolutely crucial to the foundation of the National Socialist Party and Hitler's eventual rise to power.

Bear in mind that Hitler got his start in politics through being selected and trained as one of the propaganda officers whose task was to counter Communist subversion among the soldiers of the Bavarian Army. Without the existence of the Bolshevik regime in Russia fomenting revolution in Germany through the Communist Party that was controlled by the Comintern, there would have been no need for the German military to have anti-Bolshevik propaganda officers, or to sponsor the creation of anti-Bolshevik parties such as the German Worker's Party, or to create Freikorps to combat the Bolsheviks in the East. In that situation, Hitler would have been discharged and gone back to being a marginal character scratching a living by selling paintings. There would have been no National Socialist Party.

The concept that the Jews were plotting to conquer the World through fomenting revolution was also a product of the Bolshevik seizure of Power in Russia. Although the concept had existed before the First World War, expressed in such propaganda works as "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion", it was the establishment and consolidation of Bolshevik rule in Russia, with its substantial number of Jews in the highest positions of power, that seemed to demonstrate its truth. Many conservative leaders in the west, such as Churchill, firmly believed that Bolshevism was created and propagated by Jewish revolutionaries. It was the concept of Jewish Bolshevism, and the widespread paranoia created by the consolidation and expansion of Bolshevik power in the immediate aftermath of the German surrender, that created the political environment in Germany that allowed an agitator with an anti-Bolshevik and anti-Jewish message to become established.

A good book to read on the subject is this one:

Michael Kellogg, "The Russian Roots of Nazism : White Emigrés and the Making of National Socialism, 1917-1945", published by Cambridge University Press, 2005.

Kellogg shows how anti-Bolshevik refugees from Russia, personages such as Rosenberg and Scheubner-Richter, had a decisive influence on the formation of Hitler's ideology in the period 1919-23, and how White émigré organisations provided the logistic support for the infant National Socialist party. Without the Bolshevik seizure of power in Russia, those anti-Bolshevik refugees would not have been present in Germany, and there would have been no nightmare threat in the East for Hitler and other anti-Bolshevik agitators to combat.

Hi Michael Mills - very interesting post.

The British and the French were very nervous in the 1920's of the Bolshevik seizure of power in Russia. Reason - the proclamation of the new Bolshevik rulers that their aim was World revolution, especially in the colonies of the British and the colonies of the French.

Bolsheviks wanted revolutions in - Afghanistan / India / China.

The British and the French were so nervous about the Bolshevik seizure of power in Russia, that the British and the French put forces in Russia in 1918 (Port of Murmansk) to fight the Bolsheviks

Question - how come all of this changed in the 1930's ? Britain and France was in alliance with Bolshevik leader, Stalin against Germany ?

[ljadw]

It is an extremely tenuous argument to claim that the Bolshevik Revolution was an essential precursor for the rise of Hitler!

The Communist revolution in Russia was irrelevant for Hitler obtaining power in Germany .

To the contrary, the fear created by the Bolshevik seizure of power in Russia and the proclamation of the new Bolshevik rulers that their aim was World revolution was absolutely crucial to the foundation of the National Socialist Party and Hitler's eventual rise to power.

Bear in mind that Hitler got his start in politics through being selected and trained as one of the propaganda officers whose task was to counter Communist subversion among the soldiers of the Bavarian Army. Without the existence of the Bolshevik regime in Russia fomenting revolution in Germany through the Communist Party that was controlled by the Comintern, there would have been no need for the German military to have anti-Bolshevik propaganda officers, or to sponsor the creation of anti-Bolshevik parties such as the German Worker's Party, or to create Freikorps to combat the Bolsheviks in the East. In that situation, Hitler would have been discharged and gone back to being a marginal character scratching a living by selling paintings. There would have been no National Socialist Party.

The concept that the Jews were plotting to conquer the World through fomenting revolution was also a product of the Bolshevik seizure of Power in Russia. Although the concept had existed before the First World War, expressed in such propaganda works as "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion", it was the establishment and consolidation of Bolshevik rule in Russia, with its substantial number of Jews in the highest positions of power, that seemed to demonstrate its truth. Many conservative leaders in the west, such as Churchill, firmly believed that Bolshevism was created and propagated by Jewish revolutionaries. It was the concept of Jewish Bolshevism, and the widespread paranoia created by the consolidation and expansion of Bolshevik power in the immediate aftermath of the German surrender, that created the political environment in Germany that allowed an agitator with an anti-Bolshevik and anti-Jewish message to become established.

A good book to read on the subject is this one:

Michael Kellogg, "The Russian Roots of Nazism : White Emigrés and the Making of National Socialism, 1917-1945", published by Cambridge University Press, 2005.

Kellogg shows how anti-Bolshevik refugees from Russia, personages such as Rosenberg and Scheubner-Richter, had a decisive influence on the formation of Hitler's ideology in the period 1919-23, and how White émigré organisations provided the logistic support for the infant National Socialist party. Without the Bolshevik seizure of power in Russia, those anti-Bolshevik refugees would not have been present in Germany, and there would have been no nightmare threat in the East for Hitler and other anti-Bolshevik agitators to combat.

Hi Michael Mills - very interesting post.

The British and the French were very nervous in the 1920's of the Bolshevik seizure of power in Russia. Reason - the proclamation of the new Bolshevik rulers that their aim was World revolution, especially in the colonies of the British and the colonies of the French.

Bolsheviks wanted revolutions in - Afghanistan / India / China.

The British and the French were so nervous about the Bolshevik seizure of power in Russia, that the British and the French put forces in Russia in 1918 (Port of Murmansk) to fight the Bolsheviks

Question - how come all of this changed in the 1930's ? Britain and France was in alliance with Bolshevik leader, Stalin against Germany ?

Britain and France were not in alliance with Stalin in the 1930s, only after 22 June 1941 .
Before the end of September 1939 a western alliance with the Soviets was totally excluded .

[Terry Duncan]

Necromancy.