Guys, please read - Göring said

[ljadw]

The reason the Netherlands was invaded was to bypass the Liege fortified line. That's why Eben Emael was taken out so specifically. That allowed the Wehrmacht to flank Liege and get into the Belgian plain quickly. Had this not been the case the Netherlands likely wouldn't have been invaded.

There were other reasons to invade the Netherlands :

to use the Dutch coasts to launch submarine and air attacks on Britain and to give the attacking ground forces more space .August 1914 had learned the Germans that there was insufficient space for the Westheer if the attack was limited to Belgium.

An other point is that the invasion of the Netherlands was already decided BEFORE the Venlo incident of november 1939 and the incident of Mechelen on the Maas in january 1940.

Already before the war, the French, Belgians and Dutch expected an invasion of the Netherlands and they made their plans in function of it .

[BDV]

There were other reasons to invade the Netherlands :
to use the Dutch coasts to launch submarine and air attacks on Britain

Re: Submarines
The decision to mass produce Typ VIIs instead of something more nimble and of smaller range showed that UBoat campaign was supposed to be longer range than a tight coastal blockade. Once Weserubung was decided, Dutch ports became superfluous. Well, after TypVII decision, Dutch ports were superfluous fullstop.

Re: Air campaign
Flanders and Picardy were better platforms for an air campaign against Britain. In any case Germany did not have the strategic bombing assets in place to wage such campaign (they tried using their tactical airforce for this with the known disastrous results).

and to give the attacking ground forces more space. August 1914 had learned the Germans that there was insufficient space for the Westheer if the attack was limited to Belgium.

? I don't see how the issue in 1914 was one of width. Rather it seem to have been one of depth.

In any case, by any "measure" of success the invasion of Holland was a fiasco.

[ljadw]

The question is not if the reasons for an invasion of the Netherlands were valid but which were these reasons :

In 1914 4 German armies had to advance through a narrow gap of 140 km (border of Belgium/Luxembourg with Germany ) :there was a problem of width.

In 1939 Goering asked for the use of the Dutch airfields, this was copied and repeated by Hitler in his Weisung 6 from october 1939

b) The purpose of this offensive will be to defeat as much as possible of the French Army and of the forces of the allies fighting on her side and at the same time to win as much territory as possible in HOLLAND,Belgium and Northern France ,to serve as a base for the succesful prosecution of the AIR and SEA war against England and as a wide protective area for the economically vital Ruhr .

Source : the Blitzkrieg Legend P 61 .

[Carl Schwamberger]

If there is no Weserubung, no Slag om Nederland component to Fall Gelb, and if significant cooperation is done with the Regia Aeronautica in developing anti-shipping air options, liberal borrowing of Italian air assets (SM79s), the Luftwaffe procurement does not start developing dysfunction as historical (the Ju88 production rush), and if KM monies is not wasted on blue-water mega-ships but rather is spent on coastal warships, a puncher's chance for sure. 5/6 needed at a minimum.

The reason the Netherlands was invaded was to bypass the Liege fortified line. That's why Eben Emael was taken out so specifically. That allowed the Wehrmacht to flank Liege and get into the Belgian plain quickly. Had this not been the case the Netherlands likely wouldn't have been invaded.

The rational for invading the Netherlands is often mentioned in the standard histories of the campaign, but usually as a aside & easy to miss. The German air force leaders wanted assurance of airfields within bomber range of Britain. Goering & his staff never had complete confidence the German ground forces could reach the Channel coast. They would have prefered airfields closer than the Netherlands, but those were relatively easy to capture. Mays in his analysis of the development of Plan Yellow 'Strange Victory' describes how in January 1940 Halder considered a proposal to drop the Netherlands invasion from the plans. Goering was adamant about seizing the Netherlands airfields, so they were included.

The need to bypass the Liege Fortress was also a rational, tho were the fortresses not captured the German forces advancing across Belgium & southwards would lack those key railways for supplies.

[thaddeus_c]

did they think they could direct Dutch colonial empire thru a puppet regime? throw in Belgium in that question also.

(of course the Dutch monarch escaped and lead government in exile)

[Carl Schwamberger]

did they think they could direct Dutch colonial empire thru a puppet regime? throw in Belgium in that question also ...

'They' the nazi inner circle believed the war in the west would be short & the Dutch, Belgians, & everyone else would be forced into a treaty favorable to Germany. Keep in mind the nazi leaders were economic dimwits & their idea of economically favorable treaties may not have been optimal concepts or plans. The 'temporary' armistice terms they forced on the western nations were in many ways at odds with the German short term interests. Particularly in that the war continued into 1941-42.

[pugsville]

okay guys, so I am reading the Battle of Britain an EXCELLENT BOOK

Well I have a copy and I found it quite poor.

,

and in it the author, James Holland (whom I know you guys have never heard of, but whatever)

Well you obviously wrong on that point.

said that Göring said that IF HE HAD JUST HAD 4 DIVISIONS OF PARATROOPERS,

If only a had a vast powerful force, 16 battleships, 4 aircraft carries, there is nothing "JUST" about having 4 airborne divisions it is an large expensive force that is hardly going be lying around by accident. To get the extra paratroopers something equally valuable would have to be forgone, like 3 panzer divisions, or half the luftwaffe bombers to have at the massive transport capacity.

he would have FOLLOWED THE FLEEING BEF back to England and invaded with those paratroopers, seizing key airfields where he could then land more troops for a full-scale invasion.

Göring has a pretty poor track record as a military strategist, and if he had 4 paratrooper divisions he would have used them in Holland, where they got mauled, and big losses in the transport ju-52 fleet. and the Dutch air defences took a large toll on the airborne troops, the British air defences which ere massively better, and ready the radar, command control system, and the RAF spitfire squadrons held back from France, all of which the Germans had no real understanding of the British Air defence system and thus would not take any measures to prevent what could be a complete turkey shoot.Given the losses in Holland, much higher losses seem pretty reasonable

Holland said that the British were in COMPLETE DISARRAY, fleeing for their lives, no "home guard" invasion plans has really been established at that point, a TON OF equipment had been abandoned in Dunkirk, etc. etc. in OTHER WORDS (or "i.e.", if you WILL) the British were basically lying prostrate during the evacuation of Dunkirk, and the Germans COULD HAVE AT LEAST GAINED A FOOTHOLD ON BRITISH SOIL if they had attacked IMMEDIATELY WITH PARATROOPERS AND THE LUFTWAFFE while the BEF was still in the process of fleeing.

Thoughts?

Well the British had many troops not committed to France which were either still forming or not committed, 2 full strength divisions and about 20 half strength's ones, a real lack of tacks, and anti tanks guns, and quite short of artillery. But against para troopers where the Germans would have none of these things, where the Germans would be operating with a integrated RAF defence system were control of the skies would be unlikely,. resupply, would be extremely hard.

[T. A. Gardner]

The problem with 4 divisions of paratroops is not that Germany probably couldn't have managed it if they really wanted, but rather how do you drop them in combat? A Ju 52 seats about 14 troops max. If the Luftwaffe was careful they'd have about 1,000 Ju 52 at most, probably less. That means they could drop at most 2 divisions, an more likely like 1 and a bit at one time.
This would mean it would take several days, and more probably, a week or more to drop 4 divisions somewhere. Then the problem becomes how do you supply this force given the remaining available transports? There will be losses, even if not to combat. Operational ones like crashes and such along with a certain number of planes having mechanical issues and being deadlined. This would typically be 2 or 3% per day of operations. At 2.5% per day you'd be down 175 in a week and that doesn't included combat losses which would be inevitable.
Junkers couldn't keep up with that sort of loss rate in replacements, so you're more or less screwed if you have to try and support 4 parachute divisions by air for more than a few days. They end up being lost due to casualties and lack of supplies.

[BDV]

Holland said that the British were in COMPLETE DISARRAY, fleeing for their lives, no "home guard" invasion plans has really been established at that point, a TON OF equipment had been abandoned in Dunkirk, etc. etc. in OTHER WORDS (or "i.e.", if you WILL) the British were basically lying prostrate during the evacuation of Dunkirk, and the Germans COULD HAVE AT LEAST GAINED A FOOTHOLD ON BRITISH SOIL if they had attacked IMMEDIATELY WITH PARATROOPERS AND THE LUFTWAFFE while the BEF was still in the process of fleeing.

That's some strong munchhausenian* hyperbole, right there. The "disarrayed" British were busy putting together BEF2 and landing them on the continent. It's not as if some German early success was not expected, although the scope of German success might have shocked some.

Having said that, LW started Fall Gelb with 577 "transport" (does that account for losses in Weserubung?) so a strength of 700 Ju52 for a putative air-assault on British Isles is not out of question in an alternate timeline. One does not need to parachute all men; half or so can be airlanded.

Tirpitz and Bismarck cost KM about 25 destroyers or so, although it is a valid question how would Royal Navy alter its purchase programme if Kriegsmarine is not building its two behemoths; with both Italians and Japanese engaged in a fleet build-up and the need to keep up with the (Yankee) Joneses maybe not so much.

Also germans do have the technical equipment for guiding nighttime supply runs either by ship or by plane.

However, great patience, foresight, and close cooperation with the Italians is needed to get even this puncher's chance, and German leadership at the time had neither.




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*funny, a saxon