The 6th Army received adequate air supply at Stalingrad

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ljadw
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Re: The 6th Army received adequate air supply at Stalingrad

Post by ljadw » 01 Jun 2016 08:02

About the Hiwis,the problem is that there are no reliable figures :they are varying between 19000 and 51000.

On Geschichtsforum de. the following figures are mentioned (with as source : Kehrig PP 662/663):

Verpflegungsstärke von 6 .Armee am 15 november 1942 :Hiwis und Zugeteillte

11 AK :8300

8 AK : 6300

14 PzK : 11000

51 PzK : 19000

Total :51300

But

1 ) What are Zugeteillte ?

2 ) What were the rations of Hiwis and Zugeteillte ? Probably lower than those of the Germans

3 ) How many of those 51000 were encircled at Stalingrad ? As only half of the 330000 Germans were encircled, one can assume that only half of the Hiwis/Zugeteillte were encircled,or probably less :proportionally more of them would be with the logistical units outside Stalingrad : translators,drivers, railway personnel, cleaning ladys, comfort girls...

Verplegungsstärke = ration strength = every one who was depending on the QMG of 6 Army for food,housing, fuel,transport,etc....

ljadw
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Re: The 6th Army received adequate air supply at Stalingrad

Post by ljadw » 01 Jun 2016 08:18

I still think that it was possible to supply the men encircled at Stalingrad during a short time (one or 2 weeks ) if during this short time it was possible to start and execute successfully a relief operation and that it was the failure to do this that doomed Stalingrad .

After all, the men encircled at Stalingrad held out during 10 weeks ,would that not mean that the supply problem was not that decisive ?

With the supplies they received in the OTL,they held out til 3 february 1943,if in the ATL they would have received more supplies,would they have held out longer ? And how much more supplies would be needed to hold out longer ? 5 % more to hold out to 10 february ? 10 % more to hold out til 1 march ?

Those who argue that the supply probleme was decisive, forget that Stalingrad was encircled by the SOVIETS,and that it were the Soviets who forced 6 Army to capitulate . What,if after 18 november, there was no general Soviet offensive on the southern front,but if the Soviets had limited themselves to the destruction of the encircled forces ? How long wuld these have sustained ? It is very dubious that they would have held out til 3 february .

That's why the supply question is something of a faux problème : the supplies did not only depend on the ration needs of 6 Army but also on what the Soviets would do .Bigger Soviet attacks would mean bigger supply needs .

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Re: The 6th Army received adequate air supply at Stalingrad

Post by maltesefalcon » 02 Jun 2016 03:11

The point of the supply operation was to keep them stocked with enough food, fuel ammunition, medicine and reinforcements to fight back and remain a formidable army.

The trickle of supplies meant many would die of cold and hunger. Many more died in combat due to deficiencies in arms or ammunition.

As such the population dwindled, meaning whatever was received went a little further.

So although the 6th army held out for months, the plan failed, as the entire force was either killed or captured.

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Re: The 6th Army received adequate air supply at Stalingrad

Post by ljadw » 02 Jun 2016 07:14

maltesefalcon wrote:The point of the supply operation was to keep them stocked with enough food, fuel ammunition, medicine and reinforcements to fight back and remain a formidable army.

The trickle of supplies meant many would die of cold and hunger. Many more died in combat due to deficiencies in arms or ammunition.



So although the 6th army held out for months, the plan failed, as the entire force was either killed or captured.

1)The first sentence is meaningless : it fails to include the rescue operation

2) It is questionable and probably wrong to day that more men died in combat than from cold and hunger


3)The last sentence is questionable as it suggest that the entire force was killed/captured because the supply operation failed .Even with "sufficient " supplies 6th army would be lost if there was no relief operation .The failure of the relief operation was decisive, not the supply operation .

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Re: The 6th Army received adequate air supply at Stalingrad

Post by sitalkes » 02 Jun 2016 12:58

in 1940, when discussing a certain operation that shall remain nameless (to prevent damage to sensitive minds), British intelligence thought a British division needed 250 tons a day, and German division (which was larger) 300 tons a day. Panzer divisions needed 30- 700 tons a day of supplies, while a German motorised division needed on average 350 tons a day (Van Krefeld - figures are for the North African campaign) How then can a whole army survive on 500 tons a day?

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Re: The 6th Army received adequate air supply at Stalingrad

Post by BDV » 02 Jun 2016 16:57

ljadw wrote:
The following men were transported during the encirclment
.................................................
Non wounded

Officers : 94 (Hube was one of them)

Officials :15

Enlisted : 325

Total of wounded/sick : 15911

Total of non wounded :434

A great uncle, grefier for the 4th Romanian Army, was flown out, on account of his leave coming up.

I suspect these numbers do not encompass those that left "on leave".
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Re: The 6th Army received adequate air supply at Stalingrad

Post by ljadw » 02 Jun 2016 17:40

sitalkes wrote:in 1940, when discussing a certain operation that shall remain nameless (to prevent damage to sensitive minds), British intelligence thought a British division needed 250 tons a day, and German division (which was larger) 300 tons a day. Panzer divisions needed 30- 700 tons a day of supplies, while a German motorised division needed on average 350 tons a day (Van Krefeld - figures are for the North African campaign) How then can a whole army survive on 500 tons a day?
Because the NA campaign is not Stalingrad:a German motorised division would need 350 tons a day when it was advancing or retreating,which was not the case at Stalingrad .

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Re: The 6th Army received adequate air supply at Stalingrad

Post by BDV » 03 Jun 2016 16:32

Better supply means that the forces inside the ring are better able to apply pressure on the encirclement ring (even if for only a brief moment), thus, 6th Army may be able to break-out.

OTOH, I have my doubts in the leadership of the relief force; also if supply is better the urgency to break out will be less.

How many are underwhelmed by the performance of the Axis airlift, though?
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Re: The 6th Army received adequate air supply at Stalingrad

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 10 Jun 2016 16:14

sitalkes wrote:in 1940, when discussing a certain operation that shall remain nameless (to prevent damage to sensitive minds), British intelligence thought a British division needed 250 tons a day, and German division (which was larger) 300 tons a day. Panzer divisions needed 30- 700 tons a day of supplies, while a German motorised division needed on average 350 tons a day (Van Krefeld - figures are for the North African campaign) How then can a whole army survive on 500 tons a day?
ljadw wrote:Because the NA campaign is not Stalingrad:a German motorised division would need 350 tons a day when it was advancing or retreating,which was not the case at Stalingrad .
True that last. Artillery ammunition use was relatively light in the western Desert & Lybia. Conservatively one unit of fire for a German infantry division was 55 tons. If 20 divisions in the pocket thats 1100 tons with one unit of fire expended daily, or somewhere north of 60,000 rounds. If the Germans are going to survive they need to match the Red artillery, which likely means more than one unit of fire expended per day. Modern sieges are mostly artillery battles.

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Re: The 6th Army received adequate air supply at Stalingrad

Post by thaddeus_c » 12 Jun 2016 14:32

was continued reliance on JU-52 part of the bottleneck? of course not just at Stalingrad.

something like a Germanized SM-82 (foreign aircraft they operated in greatest numbers) with twice the cargo load?

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Re: The 6th Army received adequate air supply at Stalingrad

Post by BDV » 13 Jun 2016 00:39

thaddeus_c wrote:was continued reliance on JU-52 part of the bottleneck? of course not just at Stalingrad.

something like a Germanized SM-82 (foreign aircraft they operated in greatest numbers) with twice the cargo load?
I think the data tend to point out that the problem was the general amateurishness and the (almost inexplicable) improvised-improvisation aspect of the German/Axis air-supply effort.

But, yes, to your point, by 1942 transports of greater capacity than the venerable Tante Ju should have been in place for duty; especially given the severe lessons of the previous winter.
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Re: The 6th Army received adequate air supply at Stalingrad

Post by thaddeus_c » 13 Jun 2016 02:25

read quote about improved JU-252

"For instance a Ju 252 could carry its maximum cargo of 7 tons or
so the 1200 miles or so from Berlin to Morroco and return with a small cargo all
without refuelling. It could carry
11 tons of cargo from Airfields in the South of France to Tunisia over about 680
miles. By dedicating a ton of
cargo 3 44 gallon drums and a 66 gallon drop tank Me 109 could be used to
shuttle escort the Ju 252.
Some 100 aircraft with an operation rate of 50% (75% is realistic
AFIKT) some 500 tons or cargo can be delivered in a day."

be curious as to what figures were for JU-352 (choice they WANTED to build due to use of non-strategic engines and materials)

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Re: The 6th Army received adequate air supply at Stalingrad

Post by sitalkes » 14 Jun 2016 01:52

ljadw wrote:
sitalkes wrote:in 1940, when discussing a certain operation that shall remain nameless (to prevent damage to sensitive minds), British intelligence thought a British division needed 250 tons a day, and German division (which was larger) 300 tons a day. Panzer divisions needed 30- 700 tons a day of supplies, while a German motorised division needed on average 350 tons a day (Van Krefeld - figures are for the North African campaign) How then can a whole army survive on 500 tons a day?
Because the NA campaign is not Stalingrad:a German motorised division would need 350 tons a day when it was advancing or retreating,which was not the case at Stalingrad .
Van Creveld says that the length of the supply line magnified the demands on logistics, and a frontline division in Russia needed 700 tons a day

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Re: The 6th Army received adequate air supply at Stalingrad

Post by BDV » 14 Jun 2016 17:00

sitalkes wrote:Van Creveld says that the length of the supply line magnified the demands on logistics, and a frontline division in Russia needed 700 tons a day
I would like the original quote. Germans delivered significant amount of concrete/fortification material to the front in 1942, as Soviets troops found out during Mars and Maliy Saturn.
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Re: The 6th Army received adequate air supply at Stalingrad

Post by sitalkes » 15 Jun 2016 05:55

thaddeus_c wrote:read quote about improved JU-252

"For instance a Ju 252 could carry its maximum cargo of 7 tons or
so the 1200 miles or so from Berlin to Morroco and return with a small cargo all
without refuelling. It could carry
11 tons of cargo from Airfields in the South of France to Tunisia over about 680
miles. By dedicating a ton of
cargo 3 44 gallon drums and a 66 gallon drop tank Me 109 could be used to
shuttle escort the Ju 252.
Some 100 aircraft with an operation rate of 50% (75% is realistic
AFIKT) some 500 tons or cargo can be delivered in a day."

be curious as to what figures were for JU-352 (choice they WANTED to build due to use of non-strategic engines and materials)
Don't forget a Ju-52 could pull two DFS-30 gliders, each of which could carry a ton of cargo. Gliders were used to deliver cargo to beleaguered garrisons right up to the end of the war and although the DFS 230 was used for that purpose, there was also the larger Go 242 and Me 321. They were both developed into transport aircraft, the Go 244 and Me 323 Gigant.

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