German Tangier WWII

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Ironmachine
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Re: German Tangier WWII

#16

Post by Ironmachine » 05 Feb 2017, 19:57

thaddeus_c wrote:THAT was my whole question, what support could Spain provide, what concessions could they offer without GB attempting an invasion?
A pertinent question would be, then, what could be offered by Germany for Spain to grant any concessions?

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Re: German Tangier WWII

#17

Post by alecsandros » 05 Feb 2017, 20:20

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation ... n_planning

Germany was not going to offer anything to Spain...


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Re: German Tangier WWII

#18

Post by thaddeus_c » 05 Feb 2017, 20:56

Ironmachine wrote:
thaddeus_c wrote:THAT was my whole question, what support could Spain provide, what concessions could they offer without GB attempting an invasion?
A pertinent question would be, then, what could be offered by Germany for Spain to grant any concessions?
to a certain extent Germany was husbanding their resources in preparation for Operation Barbarossa and also so as to not make any further deliveries of goods to Soviets they tabled offer(s) of oil and grain.

under my scenario of occupying international zone Germans are not demanding as much from Spain as OTL Operation Felix, so they can avoid having to settle control over Morocco?

they paid dearly (and in gold) for Spanish (and Portuguese) tungsten so any supplies or concessions would come with similar price no doubt.

(they could have swapped unfinished cruiser Seydlitz and unfinished carrier Graf Zeppelin both of which Soviets wanted)

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Ironmachine
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Re: German Tangier WWII

#19

Post by Ironmachine » 06 Feb 2017, 09:18

they paid dearly (and in gold) for Spanish (and Portuguese) tungsten so any supplies or concessions would come with similar price no doubt.
They paid, but not so dearly and not (always) in gold. The trade balance during the war was highly favourable to Spain, and finally Germany had to compensate Spain with military equipment (Plan Bär).
(they could have swapped unfinished cruiser Seydlitz and unfinished carrier Graf Zeppelin both of which Soviets wanted)
Unfinished German ships would have been of no use at all for Spain, as Spain would have been completely unable to finish them. Also, I doubt Spain would have been interested in an aircraft carrier, even if finished. The Navy plans in 1940 did not call for carriers, because (somewhat like in Germany) the Air Force wanted control of all flying machines and the Navy did not want any more problems that it had. Also aircraft would have to be provided by Germany, Spain did not have any aircraft that could operate from a carrier. And in general the Navy preferred Italian warship designs. So all in all, I highly doubt this offer would have been interesting for Spain.

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Re: German Tangier WWII

#20

Post by alecsandros » 06 Feb 2017, 16:18

... Which is probably why the Germans went ahead with planning a complete invasion, down to southern Spain.

However, resources for such an endeavor were badly needed elsewhere.
An interesting thought would be to scrap sending Rommel and Panzerarmee Afrika to help the Italians, and force a wedge through Spain down to Gibraltar... Don't know how plausible that was though, considering how thinly stretched the 15th and 21st divisions were from the very beginning...

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Re: German Tangier WWII

#21

Post by Ironmachine » 06 Feb 2017, 19:51

Which is probably why the Germans did not go ahead with their plan.

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Re: German Tangier WWII

#22

Post by thaddeus_c » 07 Feb 2017, 01:38

Ironmachine wrote:
(they could have swapped unfinished cruiser Seydlitz and unfinished carrier Graf Zeppelin both of which Soviets wanted)
Unfinished German ships would have been of no use at all for Spain, as Spain would have been completely unable to finish them. Also, I doubt Spain would have been interested in an aircraft carrier, even if finished. The Navy plans in 1940 did not call for carriers, because (somewhat like in Germany) the Air Force wanted control of all flying machines and the Navy did not want any more problems that it had. Also aircraft would have to be provided by Germany, Spain did not have any aircraft that could operate from a carrier. And in general the Navy preferred Italian warship designs. So all in all, I highly doubt this offer would have been interesting for Spain.
meant swap to the SOVIETS as indicated they had requested both vessels. IF they wanted to supply Spain with food and fuel AND not go further in debt to Stalin.

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Re: German Tangier WWII

#23

Post by alecsandros » 07 Feb 2017, 08:46

Seems no sure way to bypass geography.

Still, what if Barbarossa gets postponed again ? How much time would it be required to plan, organize and execute a breakthrough from France through Spain down to Gibraltar ?
What would be the most effective way of blocking the strait, short of conquering the Rock (which would probably take alot of time) ?

What historical consequences may be expected from such an event ?

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Re: German Tangier WWII

#24

Post by Ironmachine » 07 Feb 2017, 09:07

thaddeus_c wrote:meant swap to the SOVIETS as indicated they had requested both vessels. IF they wanted to supply Spain with food and fuel AND not go further in debt to Stalin.
It has been already discussed in othe threads. Germany could not supply food and fuel in the quantities needed by Spain.

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Re: German Tangier WWII

#25

Post by Ironmachine » 07 Feb 2017, 09:20

alecsandros wrote:What would be the most effective way of blocking the strait, short of conquering the Rock (which would probably take alot of time) ?
Controlling the Spanish territory on both sides of the Straits would allow to use airplanes, naval forces and artillery to block the Strait, so evidently that would be the most effective way of doing it. But actually being able to control that territory is the real problem.
alecsandros wrote:What historical consequences may be expected from such an event ?
That would depend heavily on how it is made and for what.
There is a huge difference between blocking the Strait with Spanish cooperation or against Spain. However, in both cases Germany is creating a lot of new problems that IMHO more than counter any possible advantage.
Also there is a huge difference between blocking the Strait for the sake of it and then turning against the Soviet Union and blocking the Strait to follow a "Mediterranean" strategy. The first case would not do the British much harm, they could invade the Canaries to find a new naval base and the Germans would find themselves with thousands of soldiers stranded in the area. If a "Mediterranean" strategy is adopted, the future is difficult to preview. IIRC there are some threads discussing such an strategy. IMHO it does not look like a winning strategy for the Germans, but who knows, it may work; there are too many variables in that case to be sure (and again it would matter if it was done with Spanish cooperation or opposition).

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Re: German Tangier WWII

#26

Post by alecsandros » 07 Feb 2017, 11:56

I'm thinking maybe a temporary attack could work ?
I.e., Op Felix going along (meaning Barbarossa postponed), Franco's forces doing little to stop them (but local guerilla would hamper the operation), with first shelling of the Rock done in 2 weeks after crossing Spanish northern border.

Supply chain from southern France (at best) to southern Spain would be a pain, but it could work provided that sufficient divisions are brought to protect the flanks.

Heavy artillery mounts could be brought by rail (if rail was available down to Gibraltar ?) , and threaten shipments attempted through the strait. Bloackading the rock, and blocking shipping by artillery and possibly air support coming from the northern part of the strait (taking and supplying the African part would be another logistical pain).

I don't think they could be doing this for too long. Maybe 2-3 months tops ?
My question would be - what kind of permanent damage (if any) could be done to the strait itself during those 2-3 months so as to halt or to significantly reduce Allied shipping through it after the German Felix operation ended and withdrew back to France ?

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Re: German Tangier WWII

#27

Post by thaddeus_c » 07 Feb 2017, 14:10

Ironmachine wrote:
thaddeus_c wrote:meant swap to the SOVIETS as indicated they had requested both vessels. IF they wanted to supply Spain with food and fuel AND not go further in debt to Stalin.
It has been already discussed in othe threads. Germany could not supply food and fuel in the quantities needed by Spain.
and it has been well established in every reference book on the subject that Soviets (Stalin) were offering grains and oil in amounts far and above what Germany (or Spain) requested (i.e. Stalin wanted to avoid war for couple years at least and would have sold what amounts to unlimited resources.)

that does not mean Germany would want to increase their trade with and/or debts to USSR and historically they did NOT, especially not to supply Spain.

my post was simply to mention that IF they had set on Med strategy they could have supplied Spain thru deal with the devil.

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Re: German Tangier WWII

#28

Post by Kingfish » 07 Feb 2017, 15:06

I'm having a problem seeing the rational for this POD in light of the historical timeline.

Following the conclusion of Fall Rot the German attention was aimed squarely at Great Britain, with the blitz and preparations for Seelowe just around the corner.

Why would they bother with the peripheries when the prospect of winning the whole enchilada was a possibility?
The gods do not deduct from a man's allotted span the hours spent in fishing.
~Babylonian Proverb

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Re: German Tangier WWII

#29

Post by alecsandros » 07 Feb 2017, 15:12

Possibly because planning for Seelowe apparently never went to far,
as the lack of necessary landing barges/ cargo ships, and the non-existence of warships capable of at least holding the line against Royal Navy foretalled disaster for a seaborne invasion attempt. An airborn invasion would be conceivable up to a point, but that point was hopelessly low in terms of men and materiel capable of being transported and supplied via air-route, even for short amounts of time (1-2 weeks).

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Re: German Tangier WWII

#30

Post by Ironmachine » 07 Feb 2017, 15:32

alecsandros wrote:.e., Op Felix going along (meaning Barbarossa postponed), Franco's forces doing little to stop them (but local guerilla would hamper the operation), with first shelling of the Rock done in 2 weeks after crossing Spanish northern border.
Assuming Spanish cooperation, German guns (what caliber?) may have been firing on Gibraltar in just 2 weeks may have been possible. Without Spanish cooperation, IMHO no.
alecsandros wrote:Supply chain from southern France (at best) to southern Spain would be a pain, but it could work provided that sufficient divisions are brought to protect the flanks.
Bringing enough divisions to protect the flanks is just increasing the supply needs. Given the very deficient communications infrastructure available in Spain, that is a great, great problem.
alecsandros wrote:Heavy artillery mounts could be brought by rail (if rail was available down to Gibraltar ?) ,
It was (in bad state, by the way, as in general was all the railway equipment in Spain), but Spanish rail gauge was different from that of French railway. If you want to carry the heavy artillery by rail you will have to regauge the line all the way from the border with France to Gibraltar. I doubt the Germans could do it in 2 weeks.
alecsandros wrote:My question would be - what kind of permanent damage (if any) could be done to the strait itself during those 2-3 months so as to halt or to significantly reduce Allied shipping through it after the German Felix operation ended and withdrew back to France ?
As it has been repeteadly posted in other threads, there was not much Allied shipping going through the Strait, it went round Africa, so there is little to be gained there by the Germans simply by attacking and retreating. If much damage is done to Gibraltar itself as to negate its value as safe harbor for the fleet, the British had the option to invade the Canaries (Spanish defences there were not up to the task of repelling an invasion) and establish a new (and more secure) base there.
Last edited by Ironmachine on 07 Feb 2017, 19:10, edited 1 time in total.

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