No Panzer III Wins the War

[BDV]

How is building the Panzer IV only instead of the Panzer III "belt tightening"?

Building 38(t)'s instead of PzIIIs, plus all that goes around them in a panzer division (as to support 11 tonne vehicles vs 22 tonne vehicles) would be the money saver, allowing Wehrmacht to stretch the money further, including more panzerwaffe buck on Panzer IVs.

[Richard Anderson]

How is building the Panzer IV only instead of the Panzer III "belt tightening"?

Building 38(t)'s instead of PzIIIs, plus all that goes around them in a panzer division (as to support 11 tonne vehicles vs 22 tonne vehicles) would be the money saver, allowing Wehrmacht to stretch the money further, including more panzerwaffe buck on Panzer IVs.

Uh, no, I'm afraid not. The Panzer 38(t) was only built by BMM and Skoda in the Protectorate, the two smallest and most isolated of the major German tank producers, to a foreign design. They were kept in production through 1945 - for seven years - because it was too costly in time, labor, and material for the Germans to retool and rebuild the factory plant so as to be able to build the German designs. Now you think it would be cheaper to retool Daimler-Benz Marienfeld, the prime contractor, and MAN, Henschel, and Alkett, which had either just been retooled and expanded or converted in order to build the Panzer III in 1938-1939, so they could then build an obsolescent foreign tank? Seriously?

[Cult Icon]

my mistake

Most Pz IIIs had the short 50mm gun. the PzIVs were mostly equipped with the 75mm short

[BDV]

The Panzer 38(t) was only built by BMM and Skoda in the Protectorate, ... most isolated of the major German tank producers ...

What is that supposed to mean? How was Bohemia "isolated" in any meaningful meaning of the word.

To the question raised, beggars cannot be choosers; lest they end up in the German situation of 1942-1943, no weapons and no victory. As you said, they ended up using the trusty LT vz. 38 till the end. A reichsmark or two saved here and there in '39-'40 would gone a long way in '41-'42.

[Richard Anderson]

The Panzer 38(t) was only built by BMM and Skoda in the Protectorate, ... most isolated of the major German tank producers ...

What is that supposed to mean? How was Bohemia "isolated" in any meaningful meaning of the word.

Isolated, as in BMM and Skoda were the only producers of the steel, engines, transmissions, suspensions, and armament of the Pz 38(t) when they were annexed into the German economy in 1938.

Isolated as in the "big three" German steel producers were Krupp, Deustche Eisenwerke, and Skoda. Skoda was centrally located to easily supply...Skoda and BMM. Krupp was centrally located to easily supply Krupp-Gruson, MIAG, Henschel, Alkett, and DB-Borsigwalde. Deustche Eisenwerke was centrally located to easily supply MAN and the Nibelungerwerke then in construction. The "big three" German engine producers were Maybach-Friedrichshaffen, Nordbau-Berlin, and BMM. BMM only produced engines for Czech designs.The "big three" transmission builders were Henschel, Krupp, and DB.

By the incorporation of the Bohemian Protectorate in 1938, the Reich had already committed too much money and effort into preparing the German tank industry to build the Panzer III and IV team, for them to choose the insane path of starting over again on building to an obsolescent Czech design.

To the question raised, beggars cannot be choosers; lest they end up in the German situation of 1942-1943, no weapons and no victory. As you said, they ended up using the trusty LT vz. 38 till the end. A reichsmark or two saved here and there in '39-'40 would gone a long way in '41-'42.

How does squandering the five-year buildup of the tank industry to start over again building to an obsolescent design result in more weapons and victory?

[Yoozername]

I am really not following BDV now. Does he means to say that he wants to keep a 37mm weapon on the 'medium' tank class? I am no big fan of the 50mm L42, but give me a break.

Clearly, the Germans chose their own KWK 37mm for the Panzer III to be logistically using the infantry 37mm ammunition, etc. Why they would introduce the 50mmL42, when it did not share ammunition with the Pak 38 is bewildering.

And speaking of Pak 38, the infantry in the Panzer Division had the Pak 38 in varying numbers depending on the division.

The Germans had already fielded a 'marder' type vehicle on the Panzer I chassis. They should have done likewise with the Pak 38, especially in the Panzer Division antitank battalion.

[Paul Lakowski]

Glantz mentions an incident were a squadron of Pz-38t were pinned down by a troop of KV tanks [KV-II?]. When they attacked- the panzer leader ordered all Pz-38t tanks to fire on the turret ring of the KV tanks. They succeeded as the Russians abandoned their tanks in the assault and were cut down with machine gun fire.

Remember the bulk of all Russian tanks were light tanks until well into 1942. I think far to many posters play too much 'world of war tanks'.

Starting from 1934- as Von Blomberg demanded- With 'fixed price contracting' & the existing resources allocated ...., the Wehrmacht could have built 4000 Pz-I + 2000 Pz-II mod [ PZ-II with larger turret with 37mm KWK gun]. Finally over 800 PZ-IV would be built with 75L18-24 guns.

On the down side no Zug-3t or Zug- 1t tractors could be built , With their positions filled with all terrain trucks.

[Cult Icon]

There were soviet tank divisions that disintegrated in the face of a general Barbarossa advance by German infantry divisions.

[Yoozername]

The Soviets tried to shoot at this panzer 38 (t) turret ring...but they missed...and hit its armor instead...

[Richard Anderson]

Starting from 1934- as Von Blomberg demanded- With 'fixed price contracting' & the existing resources allocated ...., the Wehrmacht could have built 4000 Pz-I + 2000 Pz-II mod [ PZ-II with larger turret with 37mm KWK gun]. Finally over 800 PZ-IV would be built with 75L18-24 guns.

Paul, how does "fixed price contracting" build the machine tools and factory plant overnight in 1934 necessary for the expansion of the German tank industry, when in reality it took until 1939-1941?

How does "fixed price contracting" result in construction of the production series of the Panzer III and Panzer IV without the intermediate building and testing of the development series?

How does "fixed price contracting" reveal the practical flaws of the accepted doctrine?

Why would the Germans want to build 2,400 more Panzer I and 200 more Panzer II (with or without a "larger turret")?

On the down side no Zug-3t or Zug- 1t tractors could be built , With their positions filled with all terrain trucks.

Er, what? What "all terrain trucks"? And who builds them? The Einheits-LKW program resulted in just 12,000 vehicles before it was shut down in 1940, due to the complexity and weight-versus-payload of the vehicle. Only 40% of the Einheits-PKW program was fulfilled, also due to the complexity and because much of the German motor vehicle plant was converted on mobilization to component manufacture for the aircraft industry (yet another case of Peter robbing Paul ).

[BDV]

Isolated, as in BMM and Skoda were the only producers of the steel, engines, transmissions, suspensions, and armament of the Pz 38(t) when they were annexed into the German economy in 1938.

Isolated as in the "big three" German steel producers were Krupp, Deustche Eisenwerke, and Skoda. Skoda was centrally located to easily supply...Skoda and BMM. Krupp was centrally located to easily supply Krupp-Gruson, MIAG, Henschel, Alkett, and DB-Borsigwalde. Deustche Eisenwerke was centrally located to easily supply MAN and the Nibelungerwerke then in construction. The "big three" German engine producers were Maybach-Friedrichshaffen, Nordbau-Berlin, and BMM. BMM only produced engines for Czech designs.The "big three" transmission builders were Henschel, Krupp, and DB.

AFAIK the rail communications between the Reich and the Kuk Empire were tip-top. This is not Nizhny Tagil and Leningrad.

By the incorporation of the Bohemian Protectorate in 1938, the Reich had already committed too much money and effort into preparing the German tank industry to build the Panzer III and IV team, for them to choose the insane path of starting over again on building to an obsolescent Czech design.

...

How does squandering the five-year buildup of the tank industry to start over again building to an obsolescent design result in more weapons and victory?

They would not be squandering anything, as of May 1st 1939 very little had been dedicated irretrievably and unequivocally to building strictly Panzer IIIs and derivatives, as proven by the measly 349 (+24 Stugs) they could muster a year later.

[Yoozername]

They would not be squandering anything, as of May 1st 1939 very little had been dedicated irretrievably and unequivocally to building strictly Panzer IIIs and derivatives, as proven by the measly 349 (+24 Stugs) they could muster a year later.

So, now the decision time frame is moving closer...to what I said?

[BDV]

They would not be squandering anything, as of May 1st 1939 very little had been dedicated irretrievably and unequivocally to building strictly Panzer IIIs and derivatives, as proven by the measly 349 (+24 Stugs) they could muster a year later.

So, now the decision time frame is moving closer...to what I said?

Why not? This is a discussion of what was feasible and whether (or what) options were ACTUALLY opened to the historical players.

[Yoozername]

Panzer 38 (t) losses listed here are about 800 to Jan 1942. Considering what they started with, they are taking a disproportionate amount of losses. it is really hard to say they did 'fine'...

http://downloads.sturmpanzer.com/FMS/NARA_FMS_P059.pdf

[Richard Anderson]

AFAIK the rail communications between the Reich and the Kuk Empire were tip-top. This is not Nizhny Tagil and Leningrad.

Although not the point I was making, you would do well to avail yourself of a good topo and railway map. The main lines connecting Germany and Austria through Czechoslovakia were the north-to-south double-tracked line Dresden-Prague-Vienna or Prague-Budweis-Linz and the similar east-to-west double-track line connecting Budweis-Prague-Breslau. Rail connections to the north, northeast, and northwest are limited by the Erzgebirge, Sudetes, and Carpathians, while to the west and south by the Sumava.

They would not be squandering anything, as of May 1st 1939 very little had been dedicated irretrievably and unequivocally to building strictly Panzer IIIs and derivatives, as proven by the measly 349 (+24 Stugs) they could muster a year later.

Sorry, but no, that is not correct, and is "proof" of nothing.

In fact, planning, development, and expenditures to achieve the goal of a 9 Brigade (36 Abteilungen) Panzer force with 153 Panzer III and 100 Panzer IV by 1 October 1938 was in place by 20 December 1935. By 15 January 1936, it was expected that despite strenuous efforts, the pre-production series would not be available for testing until 1 January 1938 for the Panzer III and six months later for the Panzer IV. Despte contracts for full production of the Panzer III let beginning 1 April 1937 with the expectation of 3,000 completed by 1 October 1940, the reality was about 1,000 were produced. The situation with regards to the Panzer IV was similar. Changing the plant out again to build an obsolescent Czech design would only increase costs and delay production even more, to produce an inferior tank.