What if: 1939: how to better equip German raiders (HSK)?

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kfbr392
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What if: 1939: how to better equip German raiders (HSK)?

#1

Post by kfbr392 » 13 Feb 2017, 11:40

During WW2, 9 German auxillary cruisers a.k.a. raiders a.k.a. HSK made a total of 12 sorties that reached the high seas (others did not make it through the English Channel).
They sank an average of 231 tons/raider/day of enemy shipping.

I recently re-read the wonderful book "Das große Abenteuer: Deutsche Hilfskreuzer 1939-45" by Jochen Brennecke. It tells the story of these raiders and reads like a modern day pirate novel.


Reading the book, one can make following observations on the German auxillary cruisers:

spotting of targes:
generally done by using binoculars from on-board observation posts.

camouflage/ deception:
was generally successfull.

firepower:
the amount of firepower was satisfactory for the task - ability to fight it out with RN AMCs, ability to destroy merchant ships - even thought the 15cm guns were old (built before WW1) and had a maximum effective range of only 8000m.
if anything, the armament was too blunt: most Allied freighters/ tankers were heavily damaged by HSKs guns when they they send distress signals via radio and/or manned their 4" or 5" stern guns - and could afterwards unfortunately not be sent to Bordeaux as prizes!
Typical daytime engangement ranges were 4000-6000m.

protection:
HSKs were severely lacking armor - I believe they had no armor at all!

mobility:
being ex freighters, they had speeds of 14-17kn, which was sufficient.

wireless/radio:
radar (FuMO) was not systematically provided to the HSKs, and those few devices provided suffered reliablity issues due to secrecy, lack of parts, and lack of training.
distress calls of their prey could only on a few occasions be jammed/ garbeled.

airborne assets:
the carried float planes (mostly Ar 196) could only be employed during the most favorable weather conditions.
procedure for putting the planes into water (only HSK Coronel had a catapult, and Coronel never reached the Atlantic) and afterwards recovering them was always cumbersome and slow.
on some occasions, the float planes' retractable towed antenna was equipped with a hook and used to tear down the wireless antennas of unsuspecting Alllied ships, preventing them from calling for help - an ingenious scheme!

attack procedures:
most raiders attacked during daytime.
approaching Allied ships during daylight hours usually resulted in the Allied ships using their wireless to transmit morse code distress signals. Only once did a ship ever managed to escape a raider once an attack had commenced. That was the freighter Melenaus, attacked by HSK Michel on May 1st, 1942. HSK Michel subsequently switched to surprise night attacks.


With hindsight, and proper pre-war investment and preperation, how could the HSKs of 1939 and early 1940 have been better equipped?

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Re: What if: 1939: how to better equip German raiders (HSK)?

#2

Post by BDV » 13 Feb 2017, 19:00

a jamming system against the distress signals? even if distress is signaled, if location is garbled, it helps the raider.

arming the merchant raiders with dual purpose guns on the ships (8.8 cm SK C/30,35) instead of armor busting arty?
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion


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Re: What if: 1939: how to better equip German raiders (HSK)?

#3

Post by T. A. Gardner » 13 Feb 2017, 19:45

They should have operated in loose pairs. This would have made them far more likely to find targets and once they did they were far more likely to be able to quickly overwhelm them. It would also improve their camouflage in terms of approaching another merchant. Two ships sailing loosely together give the impression that they're more likely to be friendly than a raiding ship travelling alone.

This would also give you more prize crews, a better division of labor for things like repairs, and some integral support if something goes wrong.

Another thing that should have been done is give raiders the ability to support flying boats to some extent. Being able to do so would have allowed the Luftwaffe (assuming they'd cooperate) to have a few large flying boats operating with these raiders. That would tremendously increase their scouting capacity as well as allow for detection of enemy warships far further from the raider.

To further this, the raider has several smaller, long-range, trawler-like, ships accompany it to sea. These pull in at remote locations to operate as weather stations, scouts, and tenders for the seaplane(s). All they'd need is a small machine shop, spare parts, and fuel aboard. A few mechanics to work on the plane as part of the crew is really nothing in terms of cost. The Germans, after all, historically sent several such trawlers to Greenland to act as weather stations. There's no reason they couldn't have upped the numbers some sending others to far flung corners of the planet before the war started.

Maybe get the Japanese to turn a blind eye to German raiders and such pulling in to remote islands in the Pacific for a refit and rest. Japanese secrecy being what it was there's little reason to believe that a raider sitting in the Bonin or Caroline Islands would be noticed if it was keeping radio silence or passing its information via Japanese radio systems. The Japanese get the benefit of German intelligence collection from this.

On armor: Providing light splinter armor would have been useful. Maybe a 20 to 30mm over the engine rooms and sides of the ship.

But, the big one would be scouting. Improving that would massively improve the utility of these ships.

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Re: What if: 1939: how to better equip German raiders (HSK)?

#4

Post by BDV » 13 Feb 2017, 21:33

A centralized blockade command to coordinate all of the production and combat activities, in air, on sea, and below the sea? instead of trying to will a blue water navy out of thin air?
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

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Re: What if: 1939: how to better equip German raiders (HSK)?

#5

Post by kfbr392 » 13 Feb 2017, 21:49

BDV wrote:a jamming system against the distress signals? even if distress is signaled, if location is garbled, it helps the raider.
true, but better not to allow any transmission in the first place.
BDV wrote:arming the merchant raiders with dual purpose guns on the ships (8.8 cm SK C/30,35) instead of armor busting arty?
I had the same idea. 8.8cm or 10.5cm Flak firing time fused shells, timed to explode over the radio room and the rear deck. Wounding the radio operators, damaging their equipment, wounding the stern gun crew, stunning the whole crew by a dozen salvos of airburst shells within one minute would have been sufficient to prevent any transmission and to induce a surrender without any structural damage to the ship and its cargo.
I propose to reduce the number of 15cm guns from 6 to 4 and to instead install 4 Flak 10.5 cm SK C/33 in double mounts, the same as on Bismarck.
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_41-65_skc33.php
I know, heavy (27,8 tons) and expensive, but it could have been done.

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Re: What if: 1939: how to better equip German raiders (HSK)?

#6

Post by kfbr392 » 13 Feb 2017, 23:18

T. A. Gardner wrote:They should have operated in loose pairs. This would have made them far more likely to find targets and once they did they were far more likely to be able to quickly overwhelm them.
A sound idea!

This in fact happened. But only on few occasions.
HSK Komet, HSK Orion, and supply ship Kulmerland operated abreast of each other on November 26, 1940. They were thus able to do recon on a strip "nearly 100 nautical miles wide" (according to Brennecke, "Das große Abenteuer", p.122).
Together they spotted and sank the valuable ship RANGITANE.
https://web.archive.org/web/20070721080 ... /story.htm

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Re: What if: 1939: how to better equip German raiders (HSK)?

#7

Post by kfbr392 » 13 Feb 2017, 23:59

T. A. Gardner wrote:But, the big one would be scouting. Improving that would massively improve the utility of these ships.
Agree.
And detection could be visual, via radar, and via sound detection.

Visual:
The Fa 330 autogyro was historically only available for deployment at the end of 1942. It was tested aboard a ship in the Baltic in June 1942. HSK Coronel had some aboard during its unsucessfull breakout attempt through the English Channel in 1943. But the Fa 330 was really a low tech device which could have been available 3 years earlier IF this path had been pursued sooner...
It was ideal for usage onboard raiders.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Achgelis_Fa_330

Radar:
Especially usefull for spotting at night and during low visibility. The FuMO 22 Seetakt was available in early 1939. Graf Spee was fitted one prewar. Had there been carefull planning for a raider commerce war, half a dozen devices could have been procured and produced in early 1939, and fitted on the first wave of raiders, and all subsequent raiders. This also offers enormous possibilities for shadowing visually spotted Allied ships during daytime, then plotting a collison course at night and making the intercept with radar. The final act: illuminating the target with searchlights, disabling the bridge, radio room and stern gun at close range with time fused flak shells, stunning and shocking the survivors into surrender.

Sound detection:
The ships could have been outfitted with hydrophones and could have made periodic listening stops or listening crawls during periods of low visibility and at night.

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Re: What if: 1939: how to better equip German raiders (HSK)?

#8

Post by T. A. Gardner » 14 Feb 2017, 01:03

Sound detection would have been pretty much worthless. Sonar of that era had just a few thousand yards range at most. Hydrophones are little better and they severely limit the speed you can be moving at. Sonar is a bit better but still best below about 10 knots. The use of a dome to improve detection while moving at speed was unknown in 1939.

Radar would have helped a lot as would very good RDF equipment like the Allied HF/DF systems.

For aircraft though, what you really need is a plane that can stay in flight for several hours, has a decent speed, reasonable defensive armament, and can be used for offense. Imagine two raiders that can support a pair of BV 131 or the equivalent. Each plane has a 20mm forward firing gun (turreted or not) along with several machineguns and say 250 to 500 kg of bombs on board. The plane could disable a merchant ship before the raider got there to capture it. Even if it sent a distress signal there's little information to be gained from it as the plane could have come from anywhere within several hundred miles of the ship. If the aircraft sinks the merchant... meh. It still works in the German's favor.
If it can land on water and in most common sea states, it's a big advantage over a small aircraft that has to stay near the ships all the time.

All a raider needs to operate such a plane is a crane sufficient to lift it and place it on deck somewhere. If you have say two raiders and a tender with them, that problem is solved.

Send something like this with them:

Image

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Re: What if: 1939: how to better equip German raiders (HSK)?

#9

Post by kfbr392 » 14 Feb 2017, 06:58

You mean BV 138?
It is capable and runs on diesel; but it is too large to be stowed away into the hull of the raider. Cant hide it. Could not steam up to an unsuspecting freigther with that clog sitting up on your deck.
To have them operate from a seaplane tender/ seaplane carrier would be doable, but the vessel would impossible to camouflage and would end up being reported on the wireless by a passing Allied ship.
Also, do these 3 BV 138 stay up there when the ship is in a severe storm, or do they go overboard?

A group of raiders supported by heavy seaplanes would draw the strongest Allied countermeasures.
As attractive as having raiders and support ships operating in groups appears, it is most important to have the raiders fully capable when operating indepenently. Thus, airborne assets would need to be based on each raider, and would need to be able to be stowed away/ hidden from view on it.


But your point on the imperative for more capable fixed wing air recon is taken!


Why then not install a small flight deck on the stern of the raider and carry 3-4 Fieseler Fi 167 (a navalized STOL aircraft available in 1939) below deck? Use foldable dummy masts, deck houses, cranes and walls for deception.
Attachments
Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1977-110-06,_Flugzeug_Fieseler_Fi_167.jpg

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Re: What if: 1939: how to better equip German raiders (HSK)?

#10

Post by kfbr392 » 14 Feb 2017, 13:44

T. A. Gardner wrote:Sound detection would have been pretty much worthless. Sonar of that era had just a few thousand yards range at most. Hydrophones are little better and they severely limit the speed you can be moving at. Sonar is a bit better but still best below about 10 knots. The use of a dome to improve detection while moving at speed was unknown in 1939.
I wrote hydrophones (passive listening), not sonar.

The GHG hydrophones mounted laterally in Uboats in 1939 (not taling about the Balkon-GHG of 1943-45) were capable of detecting a passing ship at roughly 20km.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gruppenho ... ger.C3.A4t
Not sure how deep the sub would have to be to achieve that result, but it certainly would have to go very slow (<4 knots).

That is why I wrote that the raiders should do listening stops or listening crawls at night and during low visibility and listen for passing ships. In fact, why should the raider plow through the op area at night at 10 knots anyway? It is just as likely to stumble upon prey going 2 knots. And when going 2 knots, it can use hydrophones.

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Re: What if: 1939: how to better equip German raiders (HSK)?

#11

Post by thaddeus_c » 14 Feb 2017, 14:37

believe the most effective addition would be the small autogyro already mentioned and ASAP small helicopters http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng ... olibri.php

(convoys might think they had been launched from u-boats, not the case with floatplanes)

also think the ships warranted stronger engines, all could manage 20kts? (that would have saved several AND been able to run down quite a few more targets)

know they were armed with surplus weapons but at first glance think they should have mirrored the u-boats deck guns? 88 & 105s? they can function as supply ship for u-boats if carrying same shells?

if they had continued collaboration with USSR they would have had Northern Sea Route to Pacific (and back carrying needed materials)

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Re: What if: 1939: how to better equip German raiders (HSK)?

#12

Post by Paul Lakowski » 14 Feb 2017, 15:46

Germany had almost two dozen large fast diesel freighters available at the start of the war that could be converted into HSK [1/2 of these were converted at the cost of a few million RM total]. The KM had stockpiled something like 180 * WW-I 6" guns that could provide the armaments for these HSK plus the dozens of torpedoes needed for each ship.

Staffing such ships might cause a problem since each would require crews the size of a Zerstroer, but deploying 10 more HSK instead of 10 Zerstroers would seem to be much more valuable to the war effort. Alternatively hundreds of fishing vessels were pressed into service as patrol vessels after the war began. Each of those patrol boats required a crew of 15-60 members - so the HSK crews numbers could come from slowing down the expansion of the Vorpstenboot fleet and training more HSK crews instead. .

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Re: What if: 1939: how to better equip German raiders (HSK)?

#13

Post by kfbr392 » 14 Feb 2017, 15:49

Agree that more HSK could (and should) have been converted (ideally pre-war) and sent out as the first wave.
But this is not the topic here.
Topic is on optimized equipment.

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Re: What if: 1939: how to better equip German raiders (HSK)?

#14

Post by kfbr392 » 14 Feb 2017, 21:22

thaddeus_c wrote:believe the most effective addition would be the small autogyro already mentioned and ASAP small helicopters http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng ... olibri.php
Mhh ... if Germany had prioritized the Flettner Fl 265, it could have had a dozen ready for HSK employment in early 1940... instead Flettner spent years working on the Fl 282, only to find out that the engine was not in production in Germany anymore. The only small scale production was in Hungary. Flettner then moved on to the Fl 339, which would have been great and used the Argus As 10C engine also used by the Fi 156 Storch... but the war was over before even a prototype could be constructed.
thaddeus_c wrote:also think the ships warranted stronger engines, all could manage 20kts? (that would have saved several AND been able to run down quite a few more targets)
HSKs were ex freighters. Engine upgrades were not part of the conversion. I dont think there were any 20 knot freighters in 1939.
thaddeus_c wrote:know they were armed with surplus weapons but at first glance think they should have mirrored the u-boats deck guns? 88 & 105s? they can function as supply ship for u-boats if carrying same shells?
Lack of shells was almost never a problem for u-boats. But there were a few occasions when some HSKs (HSK Pinguin, HSK Kormoran, possibly others) supplied Type IX u-boats with fuel and torpedos.
thaddeus_c wrote:if they had continued collaboration with USSR they would have had Northern Sea Route to Pacific (and back carrying needed materials)
HSK Komet transited to the Pacific via that route in the summer of 1940. The Soviet provided two icebreakers. Germany paid the USSR a hefty bill for their service.

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Re: What if: 1939: how to better equip German raiders (HSK)?

#15

Post by kfbr392 » 14 Feb 2017, 23:02

ha, you guys already discussed the Fi 167 onboard raiders a few months ago! Fascinating read, Paul and Thaddeus.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8&start=15

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