How would you actually defeat and conquer the USSR during WW2?

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Michael Kenny
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Re: How would you actually defeat and conquer the USSR during WW2?

Post by Michael Kenny » 13 Jul 2017 04:30

Stiltzkin wrote: No, it was because their attention was already turned elsewhere. Britain was "incidental".
Army evacuated from Dunkirk despite being surrounded-excuse ='Halt Order'

Luftwaffe beaten and Army too afraid of RN ships in channel-excuse = 'Already turned East'.


For certain any Invasion Force would suffer the same fate as the German Destroyers at Narvik

Stiltzkin
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Re: How would you actually defeat and conquer the USSR during WW2?

Post by Stiltzkin » 13 Jul 2017 04:37

Army evacuated from Dunkirk despite being surrounded-excuse ='Halt Order'

Luftwaffe beaten and Army too afraid of RN ships in channel-excuse = 'Already turned East'.
Yes, the Wehrmacht was broken on the great steppes of Sandhurst and Windsor :lol:

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Guaporense
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Re: How would you actually defeat and conquer the USSR during WW2?

Post by Guaporense » 18 Jul 2017 02:25

Stiltzkin wrote:
So the failure to bring the 'Red Army' to its knees in the summer of 1940 was the real reason?
My error is in thinking Hitler did not attack Russia until 1941!
No, it was because their attention was already turned elsewhere. Britain was "incidental". The idea that there was some kind of large invasion force waiting for the occupation of England is made up by British "overpatriotic" literature.
Indeed. Hitler never had any intention of invading Britain. I read he even dreamed of teaming up with the UK to invade the US. :milwink:
"In tactics, as in strategy, superiority in numbers is the most common element of victory." - Carl von Clausewitz

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Yuri
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Re: How would you actually defeat and conquer the USSR during WW2?

Post by Yuri » 18 Jul 2017 18:30

Guaporense wrote:
Stiltzkin wrote:
So the failure to bring the 'Red Army' to its knees in the summer of 1940 was the real reason?
My error is in thinking Hitler did not attack Russia until 1941!
No, it was because their attention was already turned elsewhere. Britain was "incidental". The idea that there was some kind of large invasion force waiting for the occupation of England is made up by British "overpatriotic" literature.
Indeed. Hitler never had any intention of invading Britain. I read he even dreamed of teaming up with the UK to invade the US. :milwink:
One character in the charming Soviet Comedy "The Caucasian prisoner" (1968) pronounces a toast.
"I wanted to buy a house, but had not had the opportunity.
I had the opportunity to buy a goat, but no desire.
So let us drink to our desires coincide with our possibilities!".

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Guaporense
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Re: How would you actually defeat and conquer the USSR during WW2?

Post by Guaporense » 20 Jul 2017 22:41

So they allowed people to buy goats in Soviet Union? I though under socialism the market for factor of production was abolished.
"In tactics, as in strategy, superiority in numbers is the most common element of victory." - Carl von Clausewitz

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T. A. Gardner
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Re: How would you actually defeat and conquer the USSR during WW2?

Post by T. A. Gardner » 20 Jul 2017 23:06

Put another way... There was no house line, and he didn't want to stand in the goat line, it was too long... But, at least there was vodka...

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Re: How would you actually defeat and conquer the USSR during WW2?

Post by ljadw » 21 Jul 2017 07:59

Guaporense wrote:
Indeed. Hitler never had any intention of invading Britain. I read he even dreamed of teaming up with the UK to invade the US. :milwink:

You need better glasses. :P

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Yuri
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Re: How would you actually defeat and conquer the USSR during WW2?

Post by Yuri » 13 Aug 2017 18:28

T. A. Gardner wrote:Put another way... There was no house line, and he didn't want to stand in the goat line, it was too long... But, at least there was vodka...
Alas, but in the Caucasus drink wine.
Quote in original:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfd3gupCAeg
Further, in the following passage Cult Soviet Trinity ("Experienced" -fat, "Dunce" - medium, "Coward" - skinny) drink beer. Coward sip sipping beer exclaims: "Live - well!". Dunce: "It is well (good) to live even better!".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIAin5xY5nM

Quotes from this movie known to all who lived in the USSR and in General all who knows Russian language.
By the way, "Dunce" - actor Yuri Nikulin - the participant of the Great Patriotic war he was an officer gunner.
Another character in the film-the district head in the hat (negative character) - Vladimir Etush - also the participant of the Great Patriotic war he was a paratrooper. The participant is known for a failed landing in October 1943 on the Dnieper. Was taken prisoner, escaped, joined the partisans, and then again in the red Army until the end of the war.

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Re: How would you actually defeat and conquer the USSR during WW2?

Post by Plain Old Dave » 14 Aug 2017 03:26

Well, there's something else g to a potential liberation of the USSR that I haven't seen in this thread: Tactical and strategic airpower. We had the best aircraft for both in the war (and I must mention I have never seen anything written by any Luftwaffe planner even broaching strategic airpower; even the 'heavy' bombers were expected to be able to divebomb). With B-24s and -29s most of the USSR is in bombing range and the Reds didn't have any sort of interceptor capable of reaching either. The infrastructure/civil engineering issue has been covered, but there's one thing I don't see happening that hasn't been covered: Given the vast geography, you almost would have to have a fifth column in Russia proper. The prob there is Stalin spent most of the 30s executing any potential fifth columnists he could find.

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Re: How would you actually defeat and conquer the USSR during WW2?

Post by Nautilus » 06 Jan 2019 02:38

losna wrote:
20 May 2017 16:31
What they did in OTL. There aren't many ways to defeat the SU, and initially grabbing as much as territory as possible and then denying to the Soviets important resources such as the Donbass and the Caucasus will work.
Germany had just enough men to bleed white the Soviets, and an attack in 1940 without other open fronts would catch the Soviets with the pants down even more than in 1941, so they'll be able if (and only) head to head to slowly crush them.
A certain Bill Clinton might have said: "Define defeat!" :-)

Defeating the Russian Empire had meant in the recent past, as of 1918: bleed it white, grab a large piece of land which included a lot of productive agrarian land, mineral resources, Baltic and Black Sea ports, population and a big chunk of industry... and it ended just as nasty in 1918 as it did in 1944.

Assuming Operation Barbarossa succeeded, this only meant the Reich owned European Russia and it could exploit the acquired lands in the most atrocious manner. Which they partly did in Real Life.

This didn't magically remove the USA and UK from the war. As Stuart Slade pointed out, if Truman could have a sizable number of atomic bombs in 4-5 years, he could use them to incinerate the German cities, and this is the end of the Reich, full stop. The most exquisite AA defense in the world may blow up 10 bombers, 100 or 1000, but in the end a few get through. (There were little chances they will take such decision. General Leslie R. Groves pointed out in April 1945: "The target is and was always expected to be Japan". But sometimes even generals get a bit desperate and may do the unexpectable.)

So, even if the Reich acquired a large and resource-rich swath of land, there was going to be a remnant of the Red Army beyond the Urals, a lifeline coming from the US ports and an attack base in the British Isles.

What they needed to defeat the SU in the long run was a magical form of diplomacy to convince both USA and UK governments to accept peace.

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