continued German-Soviet cooperation or Axis USSR

[Robert Rojas]

Greetings to both citizen Thaddeus_c and the community as a whole. Howdy Thaddeus (or Thad if you so prefer)! Well sir, in respect to your introductory posting of Tuesday - June 20, 2017 - 3:52am, old yours truly will go out on a limb and dare to suggest the unsuggestable. If there is one singular motivation for both National Socialist Germany and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics to maintain the NON-AGGRESSION PACT of August 23, 1939 was the theoretical promise of atomic fission. As early as year 1939, the Fatherland's Werner Heisenberg and the Motherland's Igor Kurchatov clearly saw the immense potential of atomic fission. It was also painfully clear to both of these esteemed atomic physicists of the military application of a fission weapon. It was also too painfully clear to both of these esteemed atomic physicists of the ramifications of possessing such a weapon. Adolf Hitler was slow to grasp the urgency of the situation and Joseph Stalin was not quite as slow to grasp the urgency of the situation. In short, by year 1940, both National Socialist Germany and the Soviet Union are both amply engaged in a slow motion marathon to develop an atomic weapon. Given the disparate talent and resource allocation that will be necessary for their respective scientific enterprises, I cannot imagine either Berlin or Moscow opting to drain their intellectual brain trusts or industrial capacity with a monumental conventional war that will divert attention from their fissile pursuits. As it is, both National Socialist Germany and Fascist Italy are preoccupied with their ongoing conflict with the British Commonwealth while the Soviet Union is still going through its trials and tribulations of morphing from an agrarian state into an industrial state. In the final analysis, the "relationship" between Berlin and Moscow from August 23, 1939 to August 23, 1949 will be an estranged one. Given the ill disguised ethnic and ideological animosity between them, you will have something reminiscent of a latter day COLD WAR. There will be no commerce of any kind and there will be rare OR no physical contact along its de facto IRON CURTAIN. If National Socialist Germany and Fascist Italy are pinched for strategic resources, then I rather imagine that "accommodations" can and will be arranged though the collusion of Portugal, Spain, Sweden and Turkey. Incidentally, I purposely omitted both Great Britain and the United States of America from my installment since this thread ostensibly deals with both National Socialist Germany and the Soviet Union. Well, that's my initial two cents, pfennigs or kopecks worth on this extraordinary sojourn into the hypothetical - for now anyway! In any case, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day no matter where you just might happen to find yourself on Terra Firma.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob

[thaddeus_c]

Greetings to both citizen Thaddeus_c and the community as a whole. Howdy Thaddeus (or Thad if you so prefer)! Well sir, in respect to your introductory posting of Tuesday - June 20, 2017 - 3:52am, old yours truly will go out on a limb and dare to suggest the unsuggestable. If there is one singular motivation for both National Socialist Germany and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics to maintain the NON-AGGRESSION PACT of August 23, 1939 was the theoretical promise of atomic fission.

not certain I follow the premise of your (nonetheless interesting) post? that both regimes are focused on nuclear program(s) so conflict between them is delayed?

(also, yes, Thad and thanks for your salutations! hope this finds you in good health and good humor!)

[thaddeus_c]

would go back to original post and mention two items

the Spanish Civil War provided the USSR with crucial infusion of gold reserves (purloined basically) from Republican side and it "froze" German-Soviet relations in place for duration of conflict.

the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact assigned the little "trading bloc" of Poland,Finland, and the Baltics that Germany had assembled to Soviet sphere.

a quick, successful Nationalist coup or some other scenario that keeps the gold out of Soviet hands and they would be realy hard pressed to strike a deal with Germany ... maybe enough to leave the German trading bloc alone with exception of Poland, which both countries found unacceptable.

[Robert Rojas]

Greetings to both citizen thaddeus_c and the community as a whole. Howdy Thad! Well sir, in respect to your postings of Sunday - June 24, 2018 - 4:19pm and Sunday - June 24, 2018 - 4:38pm, old yours truly is of the excessively optimistic school of thought that both Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin will grant their respective scientific establishments the judicious use of the decade long NON-AGGRESSION PACT to conduct the research and development necessary to produce an atomic weapon. If there is no functional atomic weapon available by August 23, 1949 then all bets will be off. A conventional war will no longer be a matter of IF but just a matter of WHEN. Since his ascension to power on January 30, 1933 and his subsequent consolidation of power on August 02, 1934 ever fiber in Adolf Hitler's being was focused on the fulfillment of his ideological program as articulated in MEIN KAMPF. Other than TIME ITSELF, the One Thousand Year Reich had nothing to gain from seeking any accommodation with its principal European foe. Commerce, the codicils of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact notwithstanding, was a nonstarter. Now, without going into a droning treatise on the ever so exciting topic of economics, National Socialist Germany was essentially bankrupt. Its gold reserves were exhausted and its currency only had value within Germany itself and its occupied territories. So, even if Berlin truly desired to engage in substantive trade with Moscow, there would be no practical way to pay for it. On the other hand, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics had natural wealth that was other worldly. If there was one commodity that the Soviet Union did not need from anyone was GOLD. The Soviet Union was a de facto GOLD EXPORTER courtesy of the hellish gold mining Gulag Labor Camps along the KOLYMA River in the Siberian Province of Yakutsk. So, until the future advent of Operation Barbarossa, both National Socialist Germany and Fascist Italy would have to improvise and make do with what limited resources they could muster on their own or procure with the collusion of third party actors. And just to reiterate, the frontier between the Axis and the Soviet Union would be akin to a latter day IRON CURTAIN where one would be able to hear a pin drop. As always, it's just some speculative food for thought. Schnitzel anyone? Well, that's my latest two cents, pfennigs or kopecks worth on this expansive topic into the hypothetical - for now anyway. As always, I would like to bid you a copacetic day no matter where you just might happen to find yourself on Terra Firma.


Best Regards,
Uncle Bob

[thaddeus_c]

Other than TIME ITSELF, the One Thousand Year Reich had nothing to gain from seeking any accommodation with its principal European foe. Commerce, the codicils of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact notwithstanding, was a nonstarter. Now, without going into a droning treatise on the ever so exciting topic of economics, National Socialist Germany was essentially bankrupt. Its gold reserves were exhausted and its currency only had value within Germany itself and its occupied territories. So, even if Berlin truly desired to engage in substantive trade with Moscow, there would be no practical way to pay for it. On the other hand, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics had natural wealth that was other worldly. If there was one commodity that the Soviet Union did not need from anyone was GOLD. The Soviet Union was a de facto GOLD EXPORTER courtesy of the hellish gold mining Gulag Labor Camps along the KOLYMA River in the Siberian Province of Yakutsk.

the Spanish gold was considered a huge boon to the Soviets, as it came in one huge shipment not reliant on their (hellishly) inefficient mining https://www.forbes.com/sites/briandomit ... 32e84b761b

[Robert Rojas]

Greetings to both citizen thaddeus_c and the community as a whole. Howdy Thad! Well sir, in respect to your posting of Saturday - July 21, 2018 - 10:55am, old yours truly would like to convey my appreciation for your thought provoking literary contribution from the FORBES organization. The article authored by Brian Domitrovic (THERE MUST BE MOSCOW GOLD) would certainly make for illuminating reading over in the adjacent SPANISH CIVIL WAR section of the forum. However, with all due respect to the learned gentleman's credentials, old Uncle Bob is of the layman's opinion that he might be overlooking a critical event that would have motivated Joseph Stalin to arrange for a significant proportion of Spain's gold bullion reserves transferred to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics in year 1936. Now, in year 1936, both National Socialist Germany and the Imperial Japanese Empire were actively involved in forging an geopolitical alliance ostensibly aimed at the Communist Third International in general and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics in particular. National Socialist Germany was also quite proactive with its lobbying efforts to induce both Fascist Italy and the fledgling Nationalist cause of Spain's Francisco Franco into this geopolitical enterprise. What would become the ANTI-COMINTERN PACT would be signed by National Socialist Germany and the Imperial Japanese Empire on NOVEMBER 25, 1936. Fascist Italy and Nationalist Spain would subsequently join ranks with National Socialist Germany and the Imperial Japanese Empire in year 1937. Joseph Stalin managed to procure and remove Spain's gold bullion reserves on NOVEMBER 21, 1936. In short, Joseph Stalin used the convenient PRETEXT of a military aid payment by Republican Government of Spain as his not so clandestine gambit to ultimately prevent the preponderance of Spain's gold bullion reserves from falling into hands of Europe's rising Fascist tide. So, just to reiterate, the Soviet Union did not need to import gold from anyone. Well, that's my latest two cents or pfennigs worth on this expansive topic of interest - for now anyway. In any case, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day no matter where you might just happen to find yourself on Terra Firma.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob

[Futurist]

what are steps needed to have had continued German-Soviet cooperation or even Axis USSR?

starting from Nazi regime coming to power

The Soviets being willing to focus their attention in the Middle East instead of Eastern Europe during the 1940 Soviet-German axis entry talks. Molotov's insistence on focusing on Eastern Europe plus the Soviets taking more of Romania than agreed on convinced Hitler Stalin wasn't to be trusted. It would also help if the German ambassador to the USSR was included in the talks, he was trying to work on a Soviet-German alliance for a long time.

Did Nazi Germany genuinely care that much about Bukovina?

[ljadw]

If Stalin had wanted to occupy Bucovina,he could have done it easily between September 1939 and June 1941 .

[thaddeus_c]

my point about Bukovina was that Soviets DID occupy a part of it NOT decided on by Germany-USSR in prior agreement, and during a vulnerable time for Germany while they were occupied in France.

like a brush across the throat of Germany? a threat to their major oil supply (not sure if it was intended as such?)

THAT and the generally unsustainable trade arrangements, as much as ideology led to June 1941 invasion, even if it would have occurred at some point in the future.

[thaddeus_c]

Greetings to both citizen thaddeus_c and the community as a whole. Howdy Thad! Well sir, in respect to your posting of Saturday - July 21, 2018 - 10:55am, old yours truly would like to convey my appreciation for your thought provoking literary contribution from the FORBES organization. The article authored by Brian Domitrovic (THERE MUST BE MOSCOW GOLD) would certainly make for illuminating reading over in the adjacent SPANISH CIVIL WAR section of the forum. However, with all due respect to the learned gentleman's credentials, old Uncle Bob is of the layman's opinion that he might be overlooking a critical event that would have motivated Joseph Stalin to arrange for a significant proportion of Spain's gold bullion reserves transferred to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics in year 1936. Now, in year 1936, both National Socialist Germany and the Imperial Japanese Empire were actively involved in forging an geopolitical alliance ostensibly aimed at the Communist Third International in general and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics in particular. National Socialist Germany was also quite proactive with its lobbying efforts to induce both Fascist Italy and the fledgling Nationalist cause of Spain's Francisco Franco into this geopolitical enterprise. What would become the ANTI-COMINTERN PACT would be signed by National Socialist Germany and the Imperial Japanese Empire on NOVEMBER 25, 1936. Fascist Italy and Nationalist Spain would subsequently join ranks with National Socialist Germany and the Imperial Japanese Empire in year 1937. Joseph Stalin managed to procure and remove Spain's gold bullion reserves on NOVEMBER 21, 1936. In short, Joseph Stalin used the convenient PRETEXT of a military aid payment by Republican Government of Spain as his not so clandestine gambit to ultimately prevent the preponderance of Spain's gold bullion reserves from falling into hands of Europe's rising Fascist tide. So, just to reiterate, the Soviet Union did not need to import gold from anyone. Well, that's my latest two cents or pfennigs worth on this expansive topic of interest - for now anyway. In any case, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day no matter where you might just happen to find yourself on Terra Firma.

every book and scholarly article on the subject cite the great need for Soviets to modernize and what a windfall basically the theft of Spanish gold reserves was (Stalin himself admitted upon their arrival the Spanish would never see it again.)

as to keeping the gold out of the hands of Anti-Comintern? that is wholly speculative and crediting the trio of Germany-Italy-Japan with coordinated action not ever demonstrated during interwar period or WWII.

[ljadw]

my point about Bukovina was that Soviets DID occupy a part of it NOT decided on by Germany-USSR in prior agreement, and during a vulnerable time for Germany while they were occupied in France.

like a brush across the throat of Germany? a threat to their major oil supply (not sure if it was intended as such?)

THAT and the generally unsustainable trade arrangements, as much as ideology led to June 1941 invasion, even if it would have occurred at some point in the future.

Romania was never Germany's major oil supply .
1940 : less than 30 %
1941 : less than 33 %
1942 : less than 30 %
1943 :less than 27 %

Why were the trade arrangememts unsustainable ?
And ideological opposition does not mean war .

[Don71]

This is completely wrong!
Romania was by far the biggest foreign oil supplier of Germany.

50% came from hydrogenation, 17% from Germany and Austria's own oil fields and the rest came from Romania, your posted numbers.
Without the Oil from Romania no war was possible, the Romanian oil fields were essential for Hitlers war plans!

[Robert Rojas]

Greetings to both citizen thaddeus_c and the community as a whole. Howdy Thad! Well sir, in light of your installment of Sunday - July 22, 2018 - 6:09am old yours truly is of the sincere belief that both you and I have reached an impasse on this subjective WHAT IF topic of interest. For every cherry picked "BOOK" and "SCHOLARY" article that you might cite on this topic, I will simply counter with a cherry picked "BOOK" and "SCHOLARY" article of my choice. Invariably, such TIT-FOR-TAT exchanges have the tendency to escalate into ad hominem urinating matches. Do you REALLY want to go there? Just asking. Well, that's my latest two cents or pfennigs worth on this now meandering topic into the now Spanish Civil War - for now anyway. In any case, I would like to bid you a copacetic day no matter where you just might find yourself on TERRA FIRMA.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob

[stg 44]

what are steps needed to have had continued German-Soviet cooperation or even Axis USSR?

starting from Nazi regime coming to power

The Soviets being willing to focus their attention in the Middle East instead of Eastern Europe during the 1940 Soviet-German axis entry talks. Molotov's insistence on focusing on Eastern Europe plus the Soviets taking more of Romania than agreed on convinced Hitler Stalin wasn't to be trusted. It would also help if the German ambassador to the USSR was included in the talks, he was trying to work on a Soviet-German alliance for a long time.

Did Nazi Germany genuinely care that much about Bukovina?

Hitler did because it represented to him how completely untrustworthy Stalin was, which was reinforced by a few other events, including the failed Soviet Axis entry talks. That and Romanian being so vital to German oil supplies made any aggressive moves there very touchy.

[ljadw]

This is completely wrong!
Romania was by far the biggest foreign oil supplier of Germany.

50% came from hydrogenation, 17% from Germany and Austria's own oil fields and the rest came from Romania, your posted numbers.
Without the Oil from Romania no war was possible, the Romanian oil fields were essential for Hitlers war plans!

67% of oil came from Germany itself, thus the biggest oil supplier was Germany itself :Thaddeus c claimed that Romania was the biggest oil supplier, not the biggest foreign oil supplier .The hydrogenation oil was more essential than the Romanian oil .
In 1940 the total was 6,7 million ton ,of which 1,3 million from Romania,1,5 million domestic crude production and 3,1 million synthetic .
1941 : total :8,3 million :Romania 2,1, domestic crude :1,6, synthetic 3,9
For the period 1940/1944 :
total : total some 40 million
Romania some 10 million
Domestic crude :8,3
Synthetic : 21
I like to see a proof for the claim that without Romania, thus with only 30 million, no war was possible .