How big of a leap in technology did the Germans need to counter the Allies

[Markus Becker]

That looks interesting!

That's not really true, Weimar had done a lot of clandestine preparations for rearmament.
http://www.maebrussell.com/Articles%20a ... ament.html

https://jamespetersnell.wordpress.com/2015/12/20/404/

However I don't think it was enough. Before and after the Sudeten Crisis the Wehrmacht thought it could not beat the Czechoslovakian Army. After the occupation of the CSR in March(?) 39 their entire arsenal of small arms and heavy weapons was taken over by Germany and more was ordered from Czech factories.

Tank-wise the WH didn't have anything half decent until that time and overall quality and quantitiy wasn't ok until early 1940.

[stg 44]

That looks interesting!

That's not really true, Weimar had done a lot of clandestine preparations for rearmament.
http://www.maebrussell.com/Articles%20a ... ament.html

https://jamespetersnell.wordpress.com/2015/12/20/404/

However I don't think it was enough. Before and after the Sudeten Crisis the Wehrmacht thought it could not beat the Czechoslovakian Army. After the occupation of the CSR in March(?) 39 their entire arsenal of small arms and heavy weapons was taken over by Germany and more was ordered from Czech factories.

Tank-wise the WH didn't have anything half decent until that time and overall quality and quantitiy wasn't ok until early 1940.

I didn't say it was enough rearmament, I just said that the foundation for Nazi rearmament was laid out in the 1920s-early 1930s (including the Soviet-Reichswehr cooperation among other foreign projects), including funding approval in 1932 for a major rearmament plan pre-Hitler that were enacted in the run up to Hitler even getting into power. Like the Autobahn the plans were laid out before Hitler got into power, he just got credit for them as they were carried out.

[T. A. Gardner]

So, building an adequate radar system will get Germans come out with a say, 5-10% hit chance SAM? Had they something similar to the US' Nike radar system?

They could have gotten most or all of the way there. The way it would work is you need three radars. A Freya or other search radar to locate targets. This could be shared by batteries possibly as its only for target location. Each battery would need a Würtzburg Riese and a standard Wurtzburg radar. The Riese is used to track the target and illuminate it. It operates in either normal pulse or in continuous wave mode. The former is for tracking, the later for missile guidance in the terminal phase.
The small Wurtzburg is used to track the missile in flight. A directional radio link with telemetry tells the missile how to stay on its ballistic trajectory.

Fire control is much like for a gun. The inputs from the Riese (or Freya) give target movement data. The small Wurtzburg gives the trajectory of the missile much like a gun's ballistics would be in the computer. The two inputs allow calculation of the intercept position and corrections are fed to the missile via the radio link automatically.

When the missile approaches the target it uses the signal from the Riese to home on the target using an interferometer and Wheatstone bridge circuit to move the missile onto the strongest return.

It's similar to the Nike or Talos system. The big variable is whether could they produce a fire control computer that had enough "umpf" to do the calculations and guide the missile. The Riese could have been given an upgrade for a more powerful output signal to allow a greater degree of "burn through" against jamming.

If the Germans managed to get a missile with a realistic 20 mile range, they could fire several at attacking bombers both while inbound and outbound from at least several different missile sites.

[Yodasgrandad]

What sort of leap in technology would they need to have on the Eastern Front?

[stg 44]

So, building an adequate radar system will get Germans come out with a say, 5-10% hit chance SAM? Had they something similar to the US' Nike radar system?

They could have gotten most or all of the way there. The way it would work is you need three radars. A Freya or other search radar to locate targets. This could be shared by batteries possibly as its only for target location. Each battery would need a Würtzburg Riese and a standard Wurtzburg radar. The Riese is used to track the target and illuminate it. It operates in either normal pulse or in continuous wave mode. The former is for tracking, the later for missile guidance in the terminal phase.
The small Wurtzburg is used to track the missile in flight. A directional radio link with telemetry tells the missile how to stay on its ballistic trajectory.

Fire control is much like for a gun. The inputs from the Riese (or Freya) give target movement data. The small Wurtzburg gives the trajectory of the missile much like a gun's ballistics would be in the computer. The two inputs allow calculation of the intercept position and corrections are fed to the missile via the radio link automatically.

When the missile approaches the target it uses the signal from the Riese to home on the target using an interferometer and Wheatstone bridge circuit to move the missile onto the strongest return.

It's similar to the Nike or Talos system. The big variable is whether could they produce a fire control computer that had enough "umpf" to do the calculations and guide the missile. The Riese could have been given an upgrade for a more powerful output signal to allow a greater degree of "burn through" against jamming.

If the Germans managed to get a missile with a realistic 20 mile range, they could fire several at attacking bombers both while inbound and outbound from at least several different missile sites.

The problem was that the Wurzburgs were jammed by the Allies later in the war:
http://www.cdvandt.org/rcm_vs_wurzburg.htm

What sort of leap in technology would they need to have on the Eastern Front?

Really not so much a leap of technology as much as better strategy and having to fight on only one front.

[BDV]

That is frankly not a reasonable excuse, given total control of continental Europe and a large chunk of the pre39 Bolshevik Russia.

Are you implying the Germans had a surplus of soldiers and willing workers?

Continental Europe did, not Germany alone. Willingness of workers depends on the balance of carrot and stick applied.

French government would be highly interested in maintaining a few areas of expertise, electronics, long range planes, self propelled artillery, ensuring that French scientist/engineers/industrialists would be motivated.

[T. A. Gardner]

The problem was that the Wurzburgs were jammed by the Allies later in the war:
http://www.cdvandt.org/rcm_vs_wurzburg.htm[/img]

I explained a little how that would have been gotten around. The Wurzburg tracking the missile isn't "looking" at the bombers and is a good distance from it. The typical noise jammers that were used against it wouldn't work well against the tracking radar due to distance and antenna directionality. That is, the antenna isn't pointed at the jamming, and the strength level of that jamming would be very low.

For the Wurzburg Riese, a CW (continuous wave) could be used for the most part, and as suggested the power increased to give more "burn through." That combination would be hard to deal with. Noise jamming alone wouldn't work. You'd really need to step things up and go to a range gate pull off jammer to truly deal with it.

While this wouldn't be un-jammable, it would be more difficult to jam as the Germans are changing how they use the sets to some degree.

Really not so much a leap of technology as much as better strategy and having to fight on only one front.

I've already suggested the one they needed there more than anything: Better civil engineering.

[Gorque]

That is frankly not a reasonable excuse, given total control of continental Europe and a large chunk of the pre39 Bolshevik Russia.

Are you implying the Germans had a surplus of soldiers and willing workers?

Continental Europe did, not Germany alone. Willingness of workers depends on the balance of carrot and stick applied.

And did all those continental european soldiers fight and die for Germany with the same degree of élan that the Germans did?

In regards to the carrot and stick, how much more stick do you think that the Germans could have applied? And what carrot could the Germans have offered the foreign workers, more food from the calorie-deficit German Großraum? Consumer goods which barely kept the German populace supplied? Additional remuneration in under-valued local currency? What further carrot could the Germans have offered a captive population?

French government would be highly interested in maintaining a few areas of expertise, electronics, long range planes, self propelled artillery, ensuring that French scientist/engineers/industrialists would be motivated.

You do realize that one of the first acts of German occupation of Western Europe was the transfer of ownership, by hook and by crook, of industry concerns and financial institutions to German individuals and companies, which means that all that research and development would have wound up with the Germans.

[BDV]

And did all those continental european soldiers fight and die for Germany with the same degree of élan that the Germans did?

That they did. Italians, Romanians, Hungarians, FInns, foreign SS-volunteers, Blue Division. Do you have any doubts about it?

In regards to the carrot and stick, how much more stick do you think that the Germans could have applied? And what carrot could the Germans have offered the foreign workers, more food from the calorie-deficit German Großraum? Consumer goods which barely kept the German populace supplied? Additional remuneration in under-valued local currency? What further carrot could the Germans have offered a captive population?

Herr Heydrich seems to have achieved a good balance, not for nothing was he singled out for assassination. Also, calorie situation was significantly different in 1941 from 1944.

French government would be highly interested in maintaining a few areas of expertise, electronics, long range planes, self propelled artillery, ensuring that French scientist/engineers/industrialists would be motivated.

You do realize that one of the first acts of German occupation of Western Europe was the transfer of ownership, by hook and by crook, of industry concerns and financial institutions to German individuals and companies, which means that all that research and development would have wound up with the Germans.

[/quote]


This is WHATIF section. Very few developments out of France for example, during the 5 years of war; with the exception of J Cousteau's invention of scuba. The failure to hitch French (and Polish, and Low Countries, and Ukrainian, and Scandinavian, and Jewish) brains to the Axis war effort, and the failure to avoid duplicate efforts with Italy is IMO a great failure of the 3rd Reich.

[Gorque]

And did all those continental european soldiers fight and die for Germany with the same degree of élan that the Germans did?

That they did. Italians, Romanians, Hungarians, FInns, foreign SS-volunteers, Blue Division. Do you have any doubts about it?

I didn't realize that the above were conquered nations subject to the demands and direction of the Germans. When did that change? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Finns decide that once they reached a certain line, they refused to go any further despite the urgings of the Germans, no? And despite the fact that "given total control of continental Europe and a large chunk of the pre39 Bolshevik Russia" how many divisions of subjugated nations did the Wehrmacht field? I ask this as these would be the only peoples subject to total control.

In regards to the carrot and stick, how much more stick do you think that the Germans could have applied? And what carrot could the Germans have offered the foreign workers, more food from the calorie-deficit German Großraum? Consumer goods which barely kept the German populace supplied? Additional remuneration in under-valued local currency? What further carrot could the Germans have offered a captive population?

Herr Heydrich seems to have achieved a good balance, not for nothing was he singled out for assassination. Also, calorie situation was significantly different in 1941 from 1944.

Are you implying that the German Großraum was now self-sufficient in food?

As far as Herr Heydrich and the Czechs are concerned, while he did improve Czech productivity, it came at the price of occupation, resistance, and less productivity that what was accomplished beforehand. BTW, what other carrots could the Germans have offered the Czechs? What about the French? The Dutch? The Belgians?

French government would be highly interested in maintaining a few areas of expertise, electronics, long range planes, self propelled artillery, ensuring that French scientist/engineers/industrialists would be motivated.

You do realize that one of the first acts of German occupation of Western Europe was the transfer of ownership, by hook and by crook, of industry concerns and financial institutions to German individuals and companies, which means that all that research and development would have wound up with the Germans.

Very few developments out of France for example, during the 5 years of war; with the exception of J Cousteau's invention of scuba. The failure to hitch French (and Polish, and Low Countries, and Ukrainian, and Scandinavian, and Jewish) brains to the Axis war effort, and the failure to avoid duplicate efforts with Italy is IMO a great failure of the 3rd Reich.

Well this is something that we can agree upon, which then begs the question as to why you brought up French research in the first place.

This is WHATIF section.

Are there any other parameters you wish to apply before we go any further in order to arrive at the answer that you want?

[BDV]

I didn't realize that the above were conquered nations subject to the demands and direction of the Germans. When did that change? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Finns decide that once they reached a certain line, they refused to go any further despite the urgings of the Germans, no? And despite the fact that "given total control of continental Europe and a large chunk of the pre39 Bolshevik Russia" how many divisions of subjugated nations did the Wehrmacht field? I ask this as these would be the only peoples subject to total control.

I am confused. Is a Sovjet conscript less dead or less POW-y if he was killed/taken prisoner by a Romanian/Hungarian/Italian/Finn/foreign SS volunteer?

And what were all these troops on the Ost Front if not fighting, under German leadership, the war that Germany had decided to wage?

Are you implying that the German Großraum was now self-sufficient in food?

It wasn't?

As far as Herr Heydrich and the Czechs are concerned, while he did improve Czech productivity, it came at the price of occupation, resistance, and less productivity that what was accomplished beforehand. BTW, what other carrots could the Germans have offered the Czechs? What about the French? The Dutch? The Belgians?

Panem et Circenses Gipsy prostitutes and French wine.

Are there any other parameters you wish to apply before we go any further in order to arrive at the answer that you want?

IMO the point of a whatif section is: would alternative actions lead to different results? Would alternative action even be possible? Any change I propose may entail some unexpected (by me) consequence, or may simply be impossible. Arguments to either end are welcome, and I have learned tremendously from forum replys.

Your last statement is not an argument, but an ad hominem.

[Gorque]

I didn't realize that the above were conquered nations subject to the demands and direction of the Germans. When did that change? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Finns decide that once they reached a certain line, they refused to go any further despite the urgings of the Germans, no? And despite the fact that "given total control of continental Europe and a large chunk of the pre39 Bolshevik Russia" how many divisions of subjugated nations did the Wehrmacht field? I ask this as these would be the only peoples subject to total control.

I am confused. Is a Sovjet conscript less dead or less POW-y if he was killed/taken prisoner by a Romanian/Hungarian/Italian/Finn/foreign SS volunteer?

And what were all these troops on the Ost Front if not fighting, under German leadership, the war that Germany had decided to wage?

While I agree to an extent with Italian and Romanian cooperation with German leadership, I cannot with the balance of nations under German control/domination. Why did the Finns stop where they did and advance no further? Why did the Hungarians not participate in the initial invasion of the Soviet Union? Why did the Hungarians refuse to provide troops for the Balkan occupation in 1944? Why were there no armies from any of the occupied Western nations of Europe, or from occupied Scaninavia? Your first statement in the thread was:

That is frankly not a reasonable excuse, given total control of continental Europe and a large chunk of the pre39 Bolshevik Russia.

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Are you implying that the German Großraum was now self-sufficient in food?

It wasn't?

Not if you consider rationing and food shortage for the population within the German Großraum as self-suffiency.

As far as Herr Heydrich and the Czechs are concerned, while he did improve Czech productivity, it came at the price of occupation, resistance, and less productivity that what was accomplished beforehand. BTW, what other carrots could the Germans have offered the Czechs? What about the French? The Dutch? The Belgians?

Panem et Circenses Gipsy prostitutes and French wine.

I'm sure Mrs. insert name would be just thrilled to know that her husband won the rights to a night with miss Gipsy prostitute

Are there any other parameters you wish to apply before we go any further in order to arrive at the answer that you want?

IMO the point of a whatif section is: would alternative actions lead to different results? Would alternative action even be possible? Any change I propose may entail some unexpected (by me) consequence, or may simply be impossible. Arguments to either end are welcome, and I have learned tremendously from forum replys.

I agree with your explanation of "what if scenarios". Moving on.

Your last statement is not an argument, but an ad hominem.

French government would be highly interested in maintaining a few areas of expertise, electronics, long range planes, self propelled artillery, ensuring that French scientist/engineers/industrialists would be motivated.

You do realize that one of the first acts of German occupation of Western Europe was the transfer of ownership, by hook and by crook, of industry concerns and financial institutions to German individuals and companies, which means that all that research and development would have wound up with the Germans.

This is WHATIF section. Very few developments out of France for example, during the 5 years of war; with the exception of J Cousteau's invention of scuba. The failure to hitch French (and Polish, and Low Countries, and Ukrainian, and Scandinavian, and Jewish) brains to the Axis war effort, and the failure to avoid duplicate efforts with Italy is IMO a great failure of the 3rd Reich.

Are there any other parameters you wish to apply before we go any further in order to arrive at the answer that you want?

Now that we have the whole sub-argument before us. I'm sorry you feel that way but how else am I to respond when first you state one thing and then pivot 180 degrees as other than moving the goal posts?

[BDV]

You do realize that one of the first acts of German occupation of Western Europe was the transfer of ownership, by hook and by crook, of industry concerns and financial institutions to German individuals and companies, which means that all that research and development would have wound up with the Germans.

I don't think that is actually correct, in particular as it pertains to the French industry, which remained in most part in French hands. French industrialist DID, on an individual basis, collaborate with the Germans, see Renault and Dewoitine.

As to prostitution, it was used as an official emollient/inducement not even 25 years prior, in WWI.

Also, if German civvies have to eat slightly worse so that French weapons developers and manufacturers can eat better, and Romanian soldiers have better weapons, it will come full circle to benefit Germany, when there's fewer Russians available to kill German soldiers.

[Gorque]

You do realize that one of the first acts of German occupation of Western Europe was the transfer of ownership, by hook and by crook, of industry concerns and financial institutions to German individuals and companies, which means that all that research and development would have wound up with the Germans.

I don't think that is actually correct, in particular as it pertains to the French industry, which remained in most part in French hands. French industrialist DID, on an individual basis, collaborate with the Germans, see Renault and Dewoitine.

I think we may have to agree to disagree.

See:

https://books.google.de/books?id=rlX4rT ... 22&f=false

Search for "native managements"

&

https://books.google.de/books?id=rlX4rT ... 22&f=false

Search for "Bank of France"

&

https://books.google.de/books?id=rlX4rT ... 22&f=false

Search for "Bureau Otto"

As to prostitution, it was used as an official emollient/inducement not even 25 years prior, in WWI.

I think you missed the point of my "tongue-in-cheek" reply on this.

Also, if German civvies have to eat slightly worse so that French weapons developers and manufacturers can eat better, and Romanian soldiers have better weapons, it will come full circle to benefit Germany, when there's fewer Russians available to kill German soldiers.

If I read the above correctly, then we are in agreement that there was insufficient food stocks to adequately feed all the people within the German Großraum.

[stg 44]

Potentially relevant to the SAM discussion: