How big of a leap in technology did the Germans need to counter the Allies

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stg 44
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Re: How big of a leap in technology did the Germans need to counter the Allies

#91

Post by stg 44 » 14 Aug 2017, 22:22

Kingfish wrote: Sure, this is the first sentence in the section titled "German counterattacks" from your Anzio link:

By early February, German forces in Fourteenth Army numbered some 100,000 troops organised into two Army Corps, the 1st Parachute Corps under Schlemm and the LXXVI Panzer Corps under Lieutenant General Traugott Herr. Allied forces by this time totalled 76,400 (including the recently arrived British 56th Infantry Division, under Major-General Gerald Templer, which arrived complete on February 16)[
Based on the Osprey campaign book 14th army numbers by February also included Italian police units that were holding Rome, plus a number of units that were not engaged. Regardless, that was a temporary point in the campaign, as the initial landing outnumbered the Germans until about February, then with the end of the German counteroffensive in February their losses coupled with the Allied reinforcements meant they were outnumbered soon and would remains so for the majority of the campaign. Plus of course the impact of the heavy disparities in air power had a very heavy impact on the campaign.
Kingfish wrote: I never mentioned Rome.

Again, this is a hot topic and one that has been debated on this forum.
I'd be more than happy to discuss it but prefer to do so in the appropriate thread.
You mentioned the highway to it, I assumed you meant push on to the city. You're right, we should leave that discussion for another thread.

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Re: How big of a leap in technology did the Germans need to counter the Allies

#92

Post by Michael Kenny » 15 Aug 2017, 05:18

Stiltzkin wrote: That you have no method or proof to demonstrate that the GI was better and still simply rely on your personal views, rather than academic work. The same goes for the Anglo-Saxon entourage in here.
The only people I see claiming any soldier was 'better' than another are those who believe in an innate Germany superiority. The irrational 'true believers' who think a German Army just has to turn up and in the mythical 'equal fight' Germany will always win.


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Re: How big of a leap in technology did the Germans need to counter the Allies

#93

Post by Richard Anderson » 15 Aug 2017, 06:02

Michael Kenny wrote:The only people I see claiming any soldier was 'better' than another are those who believe in an innate Germany superiority. The irrational 'true believers' who think a German Army just has to turn up and in the mythical 'equal fight' Germany will always win.
No Michael, what I see are people making unsupported claims about things they actually know little about. And attributing statements to others, which were never made...the straw man argument squared.

Meanwhile, Trevor never said one damned thing about "innate German superiority", but rather the complete opposite. He recognized it was learned behavior, not intrinsic to any nationality, albeit cultural issues (which is learned behavior as well) also had an effect.
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American Thunder: U.S. Army Tank Design, Development, and Doctrine in World War II
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Re: How big of a leap in technology did the Germans need to counter the Allies

#94

Post by stg 44 » 15 Aug 2017, 18:52

Michael Kenny wrote: It is indeed, Nothing is more amusing than the 'bad losers' trying to explain away their defeat without having to admit they were military incompetents.
If they were so incompetent why did the Allies spend so much time studying them after the war?

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Re: How big of a leap in technology did the Germans need to counter the Allies

#95

Post by stg 44 » 15 Aug 2017, 19:24

Michael Kenny wrote:
stg 44 wrote: If they were so incompetent.............
What do you mean 'if'?
They beat one great power in WW2. All the 'didn't they do well/look how long they lasted' excuses for the catastrophic destruction of pre-war Germany won't hide that stark reality.
You completely avoided my question on purpose. If the German military was so incompetent why did all Allied powers study their military so extensively during and after the war? It would stand to reason that such incompetent enemies would have their doctrine and methods tossed in the garbage and very limited work done on studying their experience for lessons, like what was done with the Italian and Japanese militaries.

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Re: How big of a leap in technology did the Germans need to counter the Allies

#96

Post by Michael Kenny » 15 Aug 2017, 20:19

stg 44 wrote: You completely avoided my question on purpose.
I am not here to act as an echo chamber for your beliefs.
I am of the opinion that an Army that failed to knock the UK out of the war, failed to achieve victory in the USSR and then declared war on the USA was, at best, delusional.
The campaign in France in 1940 was their only clear victory but even then it was incomplete without a follow-up UK invasion.
I know this will make no impression on those who believe war is a game with rankings for 1st, 2nd and 3rd places with points awarded for effort and style but in reality their is no such thing as a good loser.

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Re: How big of a leap in technology did the Germans need to counter the Allies

#97

Post by stg 44 » 15 Aug 2017, 20:29

Michael Kenny wrote: I am not here to act as an echo chamber for your beliefs
You aren't even here to back up your own statements by answering a simple question, instead you deflect because you know you're making erroneous statements. The Dupuy 'study' and myths about German military superiority in all areas are bunk, but swinging the pendulum to the complete opposite direction and claiming they were utterly incompetent in ever facet of the war is equally bunk as evidenced by the Allies studying the German military in a way they didn't with any other enemy they fought, up to and including having German generals write hundreds of studies about their experiences, methods, and campaigns after the war. Trying to claim someone has some 'beliefs' that need echoing when you cannot even explain how your own beliefs hold up in the face of the behavior of the militaries that fought the Germans, is a piss-poor effort at deflecting.

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Re: How big of a leap in technology did the Germans need to counter the Allies

#98

Post by Michael Kenny » 15 Aug 2017, 20:59

stg 44 wrote: but swinging the pendulum to the complete opposite direction and claiming they were utterly incompetent in ever facet of the war is equally bunk
I simply said they were incompetent, Incompetent because they started a war they could not win. I believe any person or state who willingly walks down the path of annihilation is incompetent but I gather you believe that if you kill 20 million+ of your 'enemies' (as well as millions of your own) before your insanity is overcome this is something that should be admired.
I will agree with any claim that in the case of the murder of civilians the Germans were overwhelmingly the most successful Army of all time.

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Re: How big of a leap in technology did the Germans need to counter the Allies

#99

Post by jesk » 15 Aug 2017, 21:27

There was Hitler and hundreds of his mistakes in the field of strategy.

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Re: How big of a leap in technology did the Germans need to counter the Allies

#100

Post by stg 44 » 15 Aug 2017, 21:35

Michael Kenny wrote:
stg 44 wrote: but swinging the pendulum to the complete opposite direction and claiming they were utterly incompetent in ever facet of the war is equally bunk
I simply said they were incompetent, Incompetent because they started a war they could not win. I believe any person or state who willingly walks down the path of annihilation is incompetent but I gather you believe that if you kill 20 million+ of your 'enemies' (as well as millions of your own) before your insanity is overcome this is something that should be admired.
I will agree with any claim that in the case of the murder of civilians the Germans were overwhelmingly the most successful Army of all time.
Hitler started the war unilaterally. Without question he was the worst decision-maker of the bunch and the cause of the grand strategic/strategic problems that started, escalated, and ultimately lost the war. That doesn't have to do with military incompetence on the part of the military, it has to with the political/grand strategic incompetence/pathologies of the political leadership. The military deserves all sorts of blame for not removing him when they had the chance pre-war and for their immense corruption:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bribery_o ... t_officers

In terms of military competence in the conduct of battle, body counts really aren't the only metric, but it is a significant metric especially if they are heavily lopsided. The insanity of the political leadership that started such a conflict does not have a bearing on the discussion of a nation's military's ability to fight effectively in the field. No one is going to disagree that Hitler was a profoundly sick individual or that he blundered into war and his 'solution' was always escalation to the point of total war rather than politically trying to find a reasonable resolution to end the killing; that though is a different discussion to that of the fighting power of a military.
jesk wrote:There was Hitler and hundreds of his mistakes in the field of strategy.
Sure, and that is mostly his mistakes and inability to accept his own incompetence, while shaping a military leadership that was handpicked to his way of thinking. Much, perhaps most of the military incompetence issues of the German military go back to the rot at the very top; certainly in terms of grand strategy every bit of it does, as it was Hitler who decided on war, even against the advice of his many of his political cronies.

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Re: How big of a leap in technology did the Germans need to counter the Allies

#101

Post by jesk » 15 Aug 2017, 21:47

stg 44 wrote:Sure, and that is mostly his mistakes and inability to accept his own incompetence, while shaping a military leadership that was handpicked to his way of thinking. Much, perhaps most of the military incompetence issues of the German military go back to the rot at the very top; certainly in terms of grand strategy every bit of it does, as it was Hitler who decided on war, even against the advice of his many of his political cronies.
Germany could take Moscow, Leningrad and Kiev in July 1941 and win the war. Only Hitler's intervention saved the Soviet Union from defeat in the war in one month.

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Re: How big of a leap in technology did the Germans need to counter the Allies

#102

Post by stg 44 » 15 Aug 2017, 22:07

jesk wrote:
stg 44 wrote:Sure, and that is mostly his mistakes and inability to accept his own incompetence, while shaping a military leadership that was handpicked to his way of thinking. Much, perhaps most of the military incompetence issues of the German military go back to the rot at the very top; certainly in terms of grand strategy every bit of it does, as it was Hitler who decided on war, even against the advice of his many of his political cronies.
Germany could take Moscow, Leningrad and Kiev in July 1941 and win the war. Only Hitler's intervention saved the Soviet Union from defeat in the war in one month.
I have no idea how that could be possible in July.

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Re: How big of a leap in technology did the Germans need to counter the Allies

#103

Post by jesk » 15 Aug 2017, 23:36

stg 44 wrote:
jesk wrote:
stg 44 wrote:Sure, and that is mostly his mistakes and inability to accept his own incompetence, while shaping a military leadership that was handpicked to his way of thinking. Much, perhaps most of the military incompetence issues of the German military go back to the rot at the very top; certainly in terms of grand strategy every bit of it does, as it was Hitler who decided on war, even against the advice of his many of his political cronies.
Germany could take Moscow, Leningrad and Kiev in July 1941 and win the war. Only Hitler's intervention saved the Soviet Union from defeat in the war in one month.
I have no idea how that could be possible in July.
Zhytomyr(Житомир) took the Germans July 9, Kiev September 19. All because Hitler ordered to turn south to Uman. Leningrad ordered Hitler to block, instead of storming. In the Moscow direction, the encirclement to the west of Minsk was narrow. Von Bock wanted to advance to Smolensk, Hitler spent a lot of time in the rear. In July, ordered 2 tank groups to transfer to other directions.

Image

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Re: How big of a leap in technology did the Germans need to counter the Allies

#104

Post by jesk » 15 Aug 2017, 23:45

July 11, the Germans were 15 km from Kiev

http://korrespondent.net/kyiv/1304520-k ... goda-arhiv
Meanwhile, the Wehrmacht, even on the Kiev direction, where the Germans initially struck a secondary blow, already on July 11 by the forces of the First Tank Group Ewald von Kleist came to the Irpen River 15 kilometers west of the capital of Ukraine. This day historians consider the beginning of the Kiev defensive operation, which lasted 70 days.

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Re: How big of a leap in technology did the Germans need to counter the Allies

#105

Post by David Thompson » 16 Aug 2017, 00:34

A collection of insult posts from Stilzkin, Richard Anderson, and Michael Kenny were removed.

Michael Kenny -- You wrote:
I will agree with any claim that in the case of the murder of civilians the Germans were overwhelmingly the most successful Army of all time.
Please avoid slipping in this kind of off-topic flamebait into forum discussions.

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