Hitler the great liberator?

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Ianseymour95
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Hitler the great liberator?

#1

Post by Ianseymour95 » 19 Jul 2017, 03:44

What if the Germans had really been willing to do their best to appear as liberators, promised self-determination in Belarus, Ukraine etc.? How much of a difference do you think that could have made? Any chance that the 'whole rotten structure' would come down after all?

NeoVisionist
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Re: Hitler the great liberator?

#2

Post by NeoVisionist » 12 Aug 2017, 14:54

It very much depends on how far Hitler is willing to let his hatred of eastern peoples slide "for the time being". In the event various ”liberation armies" were formed; they consisted mostly of staunch antibolshevists who had little qualms treating their own people as badly as the Nazis did. High command repeatedly protested "we can feed the Wehrmacht or the Russian people, but not both". How much truth lay in this theory is a highly interesting question in itself.


maltesefalcon
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Re: Hitler the great liberator?

#3

Post by maltesefalcon » 12 Aug 2017, 18:12

Hitler coveted the space between Poland and Russia in particular for their crops and access to the Black Sea and the Baltic. As such they needed to be incorporated into the Reich at some point. They could be lulled into cooperating by arming some of them to participate in their own liberation. They could even be used to rid the countryside of communist sympathasizers.

However at some point the worm must turn. At the time when it becomes necessary to "unliberate", the local troops would need to be disarmed, probably leading to more war. Germany would have armed and trained its own enemy.

(There is a historical example of this. Many of the American troops who fought for Britain in the French/Indian War ended up fighting Britain in the Revolution a few years later.)

MichaelE
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Re: Hitler the great liberator?

#4

Post by MichaelE » 12 Aug 2017, 18:39

maltesefalcon wrote:Hitler coveted the space between Poland and Russia in particular for their crops and access to the Black Sea and the Baltic...
No more so than Himmler. He was fanatical about eastward expansion for Leibensraum. But loathed Slavs and Poles and would have eliminated every one of them along with the Jewish population.

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T. A. Gardner
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Re: Hitler the great liberator?

#5

Post by T. A. Gardner » 12 Aug 2017, 18:42

In the end, the Nazis would be no more welcome than the Soviets were, possibly less. It's just a matter of time.

ljadw
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Re: Hitler the great liberator?

#6

Post by ljadw » 12 Aug 2017, 20:33

Ianseymour95 wrote:What if the Germans had really been willing to do their best to appear as liberators, promised self-determination in Belarus, Ukraine etc.? How much of a difference do you think that could have made? Any chance that the 'whole rotten structure' would come down after all?

This is wrongly assuming that millions in Belarus and Ukraine wanted independance,and that they were willing to abandon/desert the Soviet state / to fight with the Germans and to risk their lives to have self-determination .

As usual, people in Belarus/ Ukraine would join the winning side ,but as the Germans failed already in the summer of 1941........

If the Germans were winning, they did not need the the people of Belarus and Ukraine; if they did not win the belarussians/Ukrainians would remain neutral .

jesk
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Re: Hitler the great liberator?

#7

Post by jesk » 14 Aug 2017, 01:54

ljadw wrote:This is wrongly assuming that millions in Belarus and Ukraine wanted independance,and that they were willing to abandon/desert the Soviet state / to fight with the Germans and to risk their lives to have self-determination .

As usual, people in Belarus/ Ukraine would join the winning side ,but as the Germans failed already in the summer of 1941........

If the Germans were winning, they did not need the the people of Belarus and Ukraine; if they did not win the belarussians/Ukrainians would remain neutral .
Necessary to separate Belarus and Ukraine. Ukrainians wanted independence, Belarus has always been a heavily Russified territory.

ljadw
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Re: Hitler the great liberator?

#8

Post by ljadw » 14 Aug 2017, 16:12

SOME Ukrainians wanted independence : there was a strong Russian minority in Ukraine .

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Re: Hitler the great liberator?

#9

Post by jesk » 14 Aug 2017, 19:05

ljadw wrote:SOME Ukrainians wanted independence : there was a strong Russian minority in Ukraine .
The influence of the west of Ukraine on the east is always much greater. Many Ukrainians wanted independence, the rest did not want anything.

ljadw
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Re: Hitler the great liberator?

#10

Post by ljadw » 14 Aug 2017, 19:31

jesk wrote: The influence of the west of Ukraine on the east is always much greater. Many Ukrainians wanted independence, the rest did not want anything.
Proof for the importance of the west of Ukraine on the East ?

Besides, wanting independence does not mean willingness to fight with the Germans against the Soviets to have this independence . The overwhelming majority of the French, Belgians, Dutch wanted the Germans out, but only an insignifiant % was willing to risk its live for this .

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Re: Hitler the great liberator?

#11

Post by jesk » 14 Aug 2017, 20:00

ljadw wrote: Proof for the importance of the west of Ukraine on the East ?
People in the west of Ukraine take an active part in political life.
The events of the last 15 years in Kiev demonstrate this. East rallies are collected by several thousand people, pro-Western hundreds of thousands.
ljadw wrote:Besides, wanting independence does not mean willingness to fight with the Germans against the Soviets to have this independence . The overwhelming majority of the French, Belgians, Dutch wanted the Germans out, but only an insignifiant % was willing to risk its live for this .
After the war, the Ukrainians fought a guerrilla war with Soviet power for 10 years. The desire to create an independent state was great. In Holland, Belgium it was formally preserved.

Konig_pilsner
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Re: Hitler the great liberator?

#12

Post by Konig_pilsner » 14 Aug 2017, 21:06

This has been discussed before, and no one has ever made a credible argument of the feasibility or the advantages of a change in Nazi strategy.

ljadw
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Re: Hitler the great liberator?

#13

Post by ljadw » 16 Aug 2017, 19:52

jesk wrote: After the war, the Ukrainians fought a guerrilla war with Soviet power for 10 years. The desire to create an independent state was great. In Holland, Belgium it was formally preserved.

Not correct : after the war a SMALL group of Ukrainian nationalists continued the fighting against the Soviets .

James A Pratt III
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Re: Hitler the great liberator?

#14

Post by James A Pratt III » 17 Aug 2017, 00:01

see the UPA Ukrainian Partisan army the Soviets had to fight for awhile a fairly large insurgency

thaddeus_c
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Re: Hitler the great liberator?

#15

Post by thaddeus_c » 17 Aug 2017, 01:49

my view there is not much opportunity in the USSR other than Baltic States and Crimean Tatars.

one area that would have been useful was Arab nationalists where their affinity (somewhat) for Nazi regime and Nazi regime's affinity for them was mutual.

had Italy remained neutral or gone to Allied side Germany could have sponsored uprisings across Syria-Iraq-Palestine-Egypt.

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