How big of a leap in technology did the Germans need to counter the Soviets?

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Guaporense
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Re: How big of a leap in technology did the Germans need to counter the Soviets?

#16

Post by Guaporense » 16 Aug 2017, 01:50

The size of the German field army (Feldheer + field forces of Waffen SS) was roughly constant from 1941 to 1944 at 4 to 4.5 million men. The number of divisions increased but average number of combat troops slice of each division decreased.

As, expenditures on army equipment: guns+tanks+motor vehicles were about 400 million RM per month in 1943 while total military expenditures were 10 billion RM per month, expenditure on guns specifically was 178 million RM per month in the 3rd quarter of 1943, or about 1.8% of total military expenditures. So only 4% of military expenditures in 1943 were on army equipment, of which 1.8% on guns, and that was when their output of army equipment was much higher than previously. In 1941-1942, perhaps 2-3% of military expenditures were on army equipment.
"In tactics, as in strategy, superiority in numbers is the most common element of victory." - Carl von Clausewitz

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Re: How big of a leap in technology did the Germans need to counter the Soviets?

#17

Post by Michael Kenny » 16 Aug 2017, 02:31

Guaporense wrote:The size of the German field army (Feldheer + field forces of Waffen SS) was roughly constant from 1941 to 1944 at 4 to 4.5 million men. The number of divisions increased but average number of combat troops slice of each division decreased.
And if artillery numbers stayed the same this means late war divisional firepower had decreased.
However a TOE check shows the Artillery component of an Infantry Division stayed the same and even Volks Grenadier Divisions had nearly the same allocations as standard Infantry one. I presume the initial claim about 1939 numbers v 1944 is bogus


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Re: How big of a leap in technology did the Germans need to counter the Soviets?

#18

Post by ljadw » 16 Aug 2017, 19:46

jesk wrote:Problems began from the first days. Von Bock wanted to complete the encirclement of the Russians near Smolensk. Hitler ordered the 9th Army to turn to Volkovysk, the tank groups to Minsk. The operations were narrow, the German generals wanted to advance wider.
Generation of Russian troops, the Germans took prisoner in 1941 4 million. The argument about generation is far-fetched.

Image

Not to Minsk blow, to Smolensk

Image
There were NO 4 million POW in 1941: the Germans told the world that they had 4 million POWs, but they did not believe their own lies,and they subtracted arbitrarily 530000 POWs,which resulted in a number of 3,367,000.

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Re: How big of a leap in technology did the Germans need to counter the Soviets?

#19

Post by ljadw » 16 Aug 2017, 19:49

Guaporense wrote:
As, expenditures on army equipment: guns+tanks+motor vehicles were about 400 million RM per month in 1943 while total military expenditures were 10 billion RM per month, expenditure on guns specifically was 178 million RM per month in the 3rd quarter of 1943, or about 1.8% of total military expenditures. So only 4% of military expenditures in 1943 were on army equipment, of which 1.8% on guns, and that was when their output of army equipment was much higher than previously. In 1941-1942, perhaps 2-3% of military expenditures were on army equipment.

That is not proved,and probably not correct .

Besides, army equipment is more than guns, ta,ks, motot vehicles : what about barracks, uniforms, horses,rifles, SMG, ammunition, fuel, etc,etc .....

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Re: How big of a leap in technology did the Germans need to counter the Soviets?

#20

Post by Richard Anderson » 16 Aug 2017, 20:58

Michael Kenny wrote:
Guaporense wrote:The size of the German field army (Feldheer + field forces of Waffen SS) was roughly constant from 1941 to 1944 at 4 to 4.5 million men. The number of divisions increased but average number of combat troops slice of each division decreased.
And if artillery numbers stayed the same this means late war divisional firepower had decreased.
However a TOE check shows the Artillery component of an Infantry Division stayed the same and even Volks Grenadier Divisions had nearly the same allocations as standard Infantry one. I presume the initial claim about 1939 numbers v 1944 is bogus
Except the "size of the German field army (Feldheer + field forces of Waffen SS)" was NOT "roughly constant". It was constantly increasing...and included Freiwillger as well.

1939 - 2.775 million - 112 divisions = 31,080 per division
1940 - 3.7 million - 153 divisions = 24,183 per division
1941 - 3.97 million - 212 divisions = 18,726 per division
1942 - 4.3 million - 252 divisions = 17,063 per division
1943 - 4.8 million - 294 divisions = 16,327 per division
1944 - 4.95 million - 251 divisions = 19,721 per division

Note that the number of divisions does not include FJD, since personnel were counted in the Luftwaffe. Nor does it count the LW Flak personnel in the Feldheer or the Wehrmachtgefolge and HiWi, which by early 1944 numbered 500 -1000 per division. Thus, the "per division" figures are skewed to the low end.
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Re: How big of a leap in technology did the Germans need to counter the Soviets?

#21

Post by stg 44 » 17 Aug 2017, 02:15

Richard Anderson wrote: 1939 - 2.775 million - 112 divisions = 31,080 per division
1940 - 3.7 million - 153 divisions = 24,183 per division
1941 - 3.97 million - 212 divisions = 18,726 per division
1942 - 4.3 million - 252 divisions = 17,063 per division
1943 - 4.8 million - 294 divisions = 16,327 per division
1944 - 4.95 million - 251 divisions = 19,721 per division
That is a weird way to look at the numbers, at best that could be considered a divisional slice, but the larger the army grew the larger the apparatus not in divisions grew to sustain it.

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Re: How big of a leap in technology did the Germans need to counter the Soviets?

#22

Post by Stiltzkin » 17 Aug 2017, 02:37

That is a weird way to look at the numbers, at best that could be considered a divisional slice, but the larger the army grew the larger the apparatus not in divisions grew to sustain it.
The combat worthy troops in these Divisions will only be a fraction of that. This also does not say anything about the combat troops maintained in the field of each respective front relative to their opponent.

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Re: How big of a leap in technology did the Germans need to counter the Soviets?

#23

Post by Guaporense » 17 Aug 2017, 06:56

Size of feldheer according to M.H. (1968) Das Heer:

1941 - 3.8 million
1944 - 4.0 million

The number of guns over 100 mm was the roughly the same between these two points in time. Therefore I conclude that the German army had adequate equipment.

Also, in NPW, I had calculated the relative OLI reported divided by manpower between Allied and German divisions among 78 engagements and found average per soldier German OLI of 99% of the Allies without airpower and 86% with the effects of airpower. Therefore, in terms of firepower per soldier the German army was as well equipped as the Allies.

One example of equipment is in the battle of the bulge, december 24 where we had: 449,000 German soldiers with 1,000 tanks and assault guns and 4,100 anti tank and arty pieces. Vis 541,000 American soldiers with 3,300 tanks and assault guns and 2,400 anti tank and arty pieces. According to wikipedia.

Assuming the average weight of projectile of 7 kg for tank and assault guns and 15 kg for arty & anti tank guns we got total weight of projectile fired by all guns at: 68.5 tons for the German forces and 59.1 tons for the Americans. So German per capita firepower was a bit higher than American at this battle at that point in time: 150 grams per soldier in German case vis 110 grams per soldier in the American case.
"In tactics, as in strategy, superiority in numbers is the most common element of victory." - Carl von Clausewitz

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Re: How big of a leap in technology did the Germans need to counter the Soviets?

#24

Post by Michael Kenny » 17 Aug 2017, 07:12

Guaporense wrote:Size of feldheer according to M.H. (1968) Das Heer:

1941 - 3.8 million
1944 - 4.0 million

The number of guns over 100 mm was the roughly the same between these two points in time. Therefore I conclude that the German army had adequate equipment.

12th SS (for example) noted on June 1 1944 it was short 200 prime movers as well as 1000 trucks.

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Re: How big of a leap in technology did the Germans need to counter the Soviets?

#25

Post by losna » 17 Aug 2017, 08:47

Richard Anderson wrote: Except the "size of the German field army (Feldheer + field forces of Waffen SS)" was NOT "roughly constant". It was constantly increasing...and included Freiwillger as well.

1939 - 2.775 million - 112 divisions = 31,080 per division
1940 - 3.7 million - 153 divisions = 24,183 per division
1941 - 3.97 million - 212 divisions = 18,726 per division
1942 - 4.3 million - 252 divisions = 17,063 per division
1943 - 4.8 million - 294 divisions = 16,327 per division
1944 - 4.95 million - 251 divisions = 19,721 per division

Note that the number of divisions does not include FJD, since personnel were counted in the Luftwaffe. Nor does it count the LW Flak personnel in the Feldheer or the Wehrmachtgefolge and HiWi, which by early 1944 numbered 500 -1000 per division. Thus, the "per division" figures are skewed to the low end.
Do you have figures for Luftwaffe ground troops?

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Re: How big of a leap in technology did the Germans need to counter the Soviets?

#26

Post by ljadw » 17 Aug 2017, 12:20

Guaporense wrote:Size of feldheer according to M.H. (1968) Das Heer:

1941 - 3.8 million
1944 - 4.0 million

The number of guns over 100 mm was the roughly the same between these two points in time. Therefore I conclude that the German army had adequate equipment.

Your conclusion is wrong on 2 points :

equipment is much more than heavy artillery and there was in 1941 already a big shortage of heavy artillery :the Ostheer had in june 1941 2252 guns over 75 mm and 104 8,8 cm guns of the Army Flak . This was insufficient .

A good conclusion would be that in 1941 and in 1944 the German army had heavy insufficient artillery .

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Re: How big of a leap in technology did the Germans need to counter the Soviets?

#27

Post by Gorque » 17 Aug 2017, 14:21

Guaporense wrote:Size of feldheer according to M.H. (1968) Das Heer:

1941 - 3.8 million
1944 - 4.0 million

The number of guns over 100 mm was the roughly the same between these two points in time. Therefore I conclude that the German army had adequate equipment.
IMHO, You've used faulty logic to reach a erroneous conclusion.

Have you given thought to the notion that the above might have had something to do with finite resources (raw materials, manufacturing manpower and production capacity) and an allocation of these finite resources among the various competing agencies; e.g. Heer, Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine, transportation, and civilian requirements might have been the reason for the lack of an increase in the number of large caliber artillery pieces within the German Army?

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Re: How big of a leap in technology did the Germans need to counter the Soviets?

#28

Post by Richard Anderson » 17 Aug 2017, 19:47

Guaporense wrote:Size of feldheer according to M.H. (1968) Das Heer:

1941 - 3.8 million
1944 - 4.0 million
That's nice. The figures i gave were from Appendix 1 to U.S. Department of the Army, European Command, Historical Division Manuscript #P-005, Personnel and Administration, by Generalmajor Burkhart Mueller-Hillebrand, who is for some reason commonly abbreviated as "M.H."

Your point is?
The number of guns over 100 mm was the roughly the same between these two points in time. Therefore I conclude that the German army had adequate equipment.
The idiocy of such "logic" has been pointed out to you many times. :roll:
Also, in NPW, I had calculated the relative OLI reported divided by manpower between Allied and German divisions among 78 engagements and found average per soldier German OLI of 99% of the Allies without airpower and 86% with the effects of airpower. Therefore, in terms of firepower per soldier the German army was as well equipped as the Allies.
"You" calculated in NPW? You're Trevor? :lol:
One example of equipment is in the battle of the bulge, december 24 where we had: 449,000 German soldiers with 1,000 tanks and assault guns and 4,100 anti tank and arty pieces. Vis 541,000 American soldiers with 3,300 tanks and assault guns and 2,400 anti tank and arty pieces. According to wikipedia.
Ah, yes, Wiki again... :lol:
Assuming the average weight of projectile of 7 kg for tank and assault guns and 15 kg for arty & anti tank guns we got total weight of projectile fired by all guns at: 68.5 tons for the German forces and 59.1 tons for the Americans. So German per capita firepower was a bit higher than American at this battle at that point in time: 150 grams per soldier in German case vis 110 grams per soldier in the American case.
Why not assume that to be the unladen airspeed of an average sparrow, either African or European? Your assessment would be exactly as relevant and accurate. Meanwhile, the actual average daily artillery ammunition consumption for the German 5. Pz., 6. Pz. and 7. Armee was 610.2 metric tons (packed weight), while the average daily consumption by U.S. Third Army alone was 688.6 metric tons (projectile weight).

In other words, it is not an "assumed" 6.2:4.4 ratio in favor of the Germans, it is factually at least a 3.4:3.1 ration in favor of the Americans...without FUSA.
Last edited by Richard Anderson on 17 Aug 2017, 19:56, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: How big of a leap in technology did the Germans need to counter the Soviets?

#29

Post by Richard Anderson » 17 Aug 2017, 19:53

losna wrote:Do you have figures for Luftwaffe ground troops?
The total strength of the Luftwaffe as of 1 June 1944 is known. On that date the Iststärke of the Luftwaffe was given as about 1.9 million men. Of that total 40,000 were transferred to the Heer in July, 610,000 were in flying units (including non-flying personnel of the units), 655,000 were in the Flaktruppen, and 635,000 were in Luftwaffe support units (signals, parachute troops, engineers, medical, and security). The same report remarked that the Iststärke of the Fallschirm-Armee on 1 July was about 80,000 men (that total would include I FJ-Korps, 1. and 4. Fs.Jg.-Divisionen in Italy as well as some smaller units). We do also have good reports for the strength of II FJ-Korps with 3. and 5.Fs.Jg.-Div., Fs.Jg.-Regt.6., Fs.Jg.-StuG.Bde.12., Fs.Jg.-Ers.u.Ausb.Regt.2. and Fs.Jg.-Aufkl.Abtl.12. Those totaled about 39,476 at the beginning of June, with another 12,031 arriving in July (2. and 6.Fs.Jg.-Div.)
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Re: How big of a leap in technology did the Germans need to counter the Soviets?

#30

Post by Richard Anderson » 17 Aug 2017, 20:02

Gorque wrote:IMHO, You've used faulty logic to reach a erroneous conclusion.
Arguing logic with this one is about as useful as arguing philosophy with my cat.

The issue I have with such nonsense - which "Stiltzkin" for some strange reason characterizes as "rage" against 'Murrica haters - is that it ignores or bends simple facts in order to fit preconceived "assumptions". It is the exact opposite of the scientific method of analysis advocated by Trevor, wherein he tested his assumptions to the facts and then discarded them if they did not fit.
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