How big of a leap in technology did the Germans need to counter the Soviets?

[stg 44]

Even Soviet NKVD records has German PoWs no higher than 2.8 million.

Not exactly...

The Soviet Armed Forces reported 3,777,000 PW to 8 May 1945 and 1,591,000 afterwards - 5,368,000 total. The NKVD reported taking in 1,758,000 and 1,492,000 (in round figures) respectively and of those 3,277,964 were registered.

Do you have a source about that? I'd like to read more.

[ljadw]

Germany mobilised 18 million men, on january 1 1945 2 million had died and 1.9 million were missing (a mixture of dead and POWs);if the number of 3.9 million had rised to 8 million in may (what would be the maximum),there were still 10 million Germans who became POWs.Now the question is how many of these 10 million became POWs of the Wallies and how many of the Soviets ?

It is more than probable that the majority of those who became POWs of the Soviets in may 1945 did not leave Germany and were relatively fast released ,as happened with those who became POWs of the Wallies .

[stg 44]

Germany mobilised 18 million men, on january 1 1945 2 million had died and 1.9 million were missing (a mixture of dead and POWs);if the number of 3.9 million had rised to 8 million in may (what would be the maximum),there were still 10 million Germans who became POWs.Now the question is how many of these 10 million became POWs of the Wallies and how many of the Soviets ?

It is more than probable that the majority of those who became POWs of the Soviets in may 1945 did not leave Germany and were relatively fast released ,as happened with those who became POWs of the Wallies .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_pr ... est_Europe

The total haul of German POWs held by the western allies by April 30, 1945 in all theatres of war was over 3,150,000, rising in NW Europe to 7,614,790 after the end of the war.[10]

The World War II Databook, by John Ellis, 1993 p256.

So 76% of PoWs were taken by the Wallies.

The number of prisoners taken in the west in March and April was over 1,800,000,[7] more than double the 800,000 German soldiers who surrendered to the Russians in the last three or four months of the war.[8]

The Times, May 1st 1945 p 4

[ljadw]

" 76 % of POWs were taken by Wallies " is not correct :7.6 million is the total number of POWs by the Wallies, but more than 10 million Germans became POWs :

before the capitulation : Wallies : 3.1 million; Soviet Union > than 1.5 million : Total 4.6 million

at the capitulation : Wallies 4.5 million ; Soviet Union possible /probable : 4 million . Or even more. T

otal : 8.5 million

Total number of POWs (wounded + sick included ) : 13.1 of whom 7.6 by the Wallies = 58 % and 5.5 million by the Soviets .

There would be also some 5 million dead and missing .

The number of Soviet POWs :

AOK Ic figures (til april 1945) :5,487,549

OKH Gen.Qu (til march 1945) : 5.245,882

[stg 44]

" 76 % of POWs were taken by Wallies " is not correct :7.6 million is the total number of POWs by the Wallies, but more than 10 million Germans became POWs :

before the capitulation : Wallies : 3.1 million; Soviet Union > than 1.5 million : Total 4.6 million

at the capitulation : Wallies 4.5 million ; Soviet Union possible /probable : 4 million . Or even more. T

otal : 8.5 million

Total number of POWs (wounded + sick included ) : 13.1 of whom 7.6 by the Wallies = 58 % and 5.5 million by the Soviets .

And what is the source for your numbers?

[Richard Anderson]

I have 100 divisions of 5 thousand soldiers each. 150 thousand reservists. To give 30 divisions of 5 thousand or all 100 equally? The second option is probably better.

Except that isn't even remotely close to how complex the problem was and how complex a process rebuilding divisions was. Remember the "figures"?

The Istsstärke (effective strength) of the Ostheer as of 1 June 1941 was 2,765,276 in 96 divisions, including AOK 20. Roughly 28,805 per division.

As of 1 January 1942, the 162 divisions, including AOK 20, had a Verpflegungsstärke (ration strength, i.e., including non-combatants and not-ready-for-duty - c. 70,000 sick and frostbitten and an unknown number of WIA) of just 2,720,000, roughly 16,790 per division, after suffering combat losses of 830,903 and absorbing 516,000 replacements, including Genesene (returning convalescent wounded, sick, and injured). Combat losses in January-February were 175,733 and replacements were 167,900...and non-combat (illness, frostbite, and injuries) losses in February were 277,888.

By the end of February 1942, the Ostheer recorded 661,575 in hospital, sick and wounded, versus a 1 March Verpflegungsstärke of 3,274,000, i.e. an Ist of c. 2,612,425 for 174 divisions. Roughly 15,014 per division.

So, by the end of February, the Ostheer was in a perilous state and needed to be rebuilt in order for it to resume offensive operations. And it wasn't as simple as the divisions had "5 thousand soldiers each". In many, they might just be short 5,000 soldiers...but those 5,000 were out of the 9,000 or so infantry doing most of the fighting in the division. So it didn't solve things to send the division 5,000 men not trained as infantry. In others though, such as 162. Inf.-Div., they didn't even have the 5,000...it was hammered so badly in the Soviet counteroffensive and from its earlier losses that it numbered a few thousand only...basically the division headquarters and services and fragments of its combat elements. So in April it was withdrawn from HG-M and sent to Stettin for a complete rebuilding, but after further assessment was simply disbanded - it was considered too badly shattered and there was not enough cadre personnel left in the combat units to structure a rebuild on.

It was also obvious that not all could be brought to full strength and it made no sense to distribute replacements evenly. So they concentrated the bulk of replacements and reinforcements where they planned the next offensive...HG-S. From December 1941 through March 1942, HG-N got 94,000 replacements...leaving it 62,000 short of replacing just its combat losses. HG-M got 180,800 and was still short 265,500. HG-S got 112,500 and was only left short 17,400. March losses were then 52,600 HG-N, 79,700 HG-M, and 35,600 HG-S for the month. Data for April-June are more fragmentary, but it appears the trend continued with HG-S formations getting significant replacements proportional to its shortfalls compared to HG-N and HG-S, which continued to get replacements, but fewer proportionately. By 20 June, the eve of BLAU, despite incurring more casualties in the intervening three months, HG-S shortfall was 10,366, which was manageable.

[Richard Anderson]

Do you have a source about that? I'd like to read more.

Krivosheev.

[jesk]

From December 1941 through March 1942, HG-N got 94,000 replacements...leaving it 62,000 short of replacing just its combat losses. HG-M got 180,800 and was still short 265,500. HG-S got 112,500 and was only left short 17,400. March losses were then 52,600 HG-N, 79,700 HG-M, and 35,600 HG-S for the month. Data for April-June are more fragmentary, but it appears the trend continued with HG-S formations getting significant replacements proportional to its shortfalls compared to HG-N and HG-S, which continued to get replacements, but fewer proportionately. By 20 June, the eve of BLAU, despite incurring more casualties in the intervening three months, HG-S shortfall was 10,366, which was manageable.

Hitler declared already on December 6, 1941 approach in 1942 of one group of armies. Replenishments after December 6 to a question don't matter. For example, Russians in 1945 attacked all fronts though in many divisions there were only 2-5 thousand people.
70% of Wehrmacht weren't at war and it is strange.

[Richard Anderson]

Hitler declared already on December 6, 1941 approach in 1942 of one group of armies. Replenishments after December 6 to a question don't matter. For example, Russians in 1945 attacked all fronts though in many divisions there were only 2-5 thousand people.
70% of Wehrmacht weren't at war and it is strange.

It seems strangely difficult to find examples of these late war 2,000-man divisions. Average strength of the RD 1 January-9 May 1945 on the active fronts facing Germany was about 5100. You might peruse this thread...or any of the other detailed threads Art has participated in. viewtopic.php?p=1515855#p1515855

[Richard Anderson]

And what is the source for your numbers?

I have no idea where his are from. Mine are from NARA RG 331 Allied Operational and Occupational Headquarters World War II, SHAEF Command Staff G-1, Administrative Section Decimal Files, 1944-1945, Box #25, Folder 383.6/1, Daily POW Reports.

As of 30 April 1945 there were the following captures by organization/nationality:

21 AG - 412,008
12 AG - 1,988,921
6 AG - 557,141
COMZ - 4,517

By 7 May the following were added:
21 AG - 98,506
12 AG - 561,169
6 AG - 84,534
COMZ - 0

As of 22 May the total of all PW and DEF/SEP were:
21 AG - 516,418
12 AG - 3,405,695
6 AG - 925,376
COMZ - 4,517

As mentioned in another thread, the German capitulation in Norway was another 327,393. Somewhere, I used to have the total surrendered by HG-C in Italy.

[stg 44]

Do you have a source about that? I'd like to read more.

Krivosheev.

I don't have his book, but I have "When Titans Clashed", which cites his work and cites in terms of PoWs, p.392 in Krivosheev, 2389,600 German, 156,000 Austrian, and 464,147 other nationalities in German service (various SS units, Spanish Blue division, etc.) plus of course a variety of other Axis minor allies to a combined number of a bit under 3.8 million. Seems like a comparable total, given that it wasn't just Germans fighting in the East.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_pr ... viet_Union

In his revised Russian language edition of Soviet Casualties and Combat LossesKrivosheev put the number of German military POW at 2,733,739 and dead at 381,067(356,700 German nationals and 24,367 from other nations)G. I. Krivosheev Rossiia i SSSR v voinakh XX veka: Poteri vooruzhennykh sil; statisticheskoe issledovanie OLMA-Press, 2001 ISBN 5-224-01515-4 Table 198

Somewhere, I used to have the total surrendered by HG-C in Italy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_C ... ld_War_II)

Surrender of Caserta: 1,000,000 captured[16]
[16]Daily Telegraph Story of the War fifth volume page 153

Ellis states that from various sources, between September 1939 and 31 December 1944, the German Armed Forces (including the Waffen SS and foreign volunteers) lost 59,940 killed, 163,600 wounded, and 357,090 captured within Italy. He notes that other sources, for only the army, losses between June 1941 and 10 April 1945 amount to 46,800 killed, 208,240 captured, and 168,570 wounded.[6]

Ellis, p. 255
Ellis, John (1993). The World War II Databook: The Essential Facts and Figures for all the combatants. BCA.

[jesk]

It seems strangely difficult to find examples of these late war 2,000-man divisions. Average strength of the RD 1 January-9 May 1945 on the active fronts facing Germany was about 5100. You might peruse this thread...or any of the other detailed threads Art has participated in. viewtopic.php?p=1515855#p1515855

According to Isaev divisions in Kurland in 1945 were on 2000 people.

https://dr-guillotin.livejournal.com/

[jesk]

And what is the source for your numbers?

I have no idea where his are from. Mine are from NARA RG 331 Allied Operational and Occupational Headquarters World War II, SHAEF Command Staff G-1, Administrative Section Decimal Files, 1944-1945, Box #25, Folder 383.6/1, Daily POW Reports.

As of 30 April 1945 there were the following captures by organization/nationality:

21 AG - 412,008
12 AG - 1,988,921
6 AG - 557,141
COMZ - 4,517

By 7 May the following were added:
21 AG - 98,506
12 AG - 561,169
6 AG - 84,534
COMZ - 0

As of 22 May the total of all PW and DEF/SEP were:
21 AG - 516,418
12 AG - 3,405,695
6 AG - 925,376
COMZ - 4,517

As mentioned in another thread, the German capitulation in Norway was another 327,393. Somewhere, I used to have the total surrendered by HG-C in Italy.

The figures of 21 AG are understated. British have accepted capitulation of the German armed forces in Denmark, Holland, Norway, northern Germany. In total 3,6 million Germans have got to the British captivity.

[jesk]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_pr ... viet_Union

Overmans has overestimated number of the prisoners taken in 1 quarter and has underestimated in the second. For January-March, 1945 there couldn't be 540 thousand German prisoners on east front.The encirclement of Budapest and the Vistula-Oder operation of at least 200,000 prisoners. There were no more encirclements during this period.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_pr ... _estimates

[ljadw]

" 76 % of POWs were taken by Wallies " is not correct :7.6 million is the total number of POWs by the Wallies, but more than 10 million Germans became POWs :

before the capitulation : Wallies : 3.1 million; Soviet Union > than 1.5 million : Total 4.6 million

at the capitulation : Wallies 4.5 million ; Soviet Union possible /probable : 4 million . Or even more. T

otal : 8.5 million

Total number of POWs (wounded + sick included ) : 13.1 of whom 7.6 by the Wallies = 58 % and 5.5 million by the Soviets .

And what is the source for your numbers?

See your own post where you cited Ellis'figures of 7,614,790 POWs by the Wallies after the war .

The Germans mobilised 18 million ;not more than 4 million died during the war (excluding the POWs who died in captivity),remains 14 million : if of these 14 million 7,6 million were captured by the Wallies, the conclusion is that 6,4 million were captured by the Soviets .

Or the number of 7.6 million is to low, or the number of Soviet POWs that was mentioned (3.5 million ) is to low . There is a gap of 3 million .