What if the Soviet Union joins the Axis in 1941 and declares war on the British

[Batman912]

What if the ideology of Hitler took a different turn and became closely aligned with Strasserism and it's anti-capitalist bent, while playing down the anti-Communism and anti-Slavic elements of Nazism.

Hitler still becomes chancellor of Germany in January 1933 but with a slightly different ideology.

What if this led Hitler to see the British Empire and the United States as evil corrupt plutocracies, the true enemies of Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union as a potential ally.

Leading from this what if the Soviet Union becomes a full fledged member of the Axis Powers in June 1941 and joins Germany and Italy in their war against Britain in the Middle East and North Africa through Iran attacking British forces in Iraq.

Six months in December 1941 later Japan attacks the United States at Pearl Harbour. Germany, Italy and the Soviet Union declare war on the United States.

What would happen next?

Would the British and Americans successfully carry out D-Day?

Would India be conquered by the Axis?

Would Britain be defeated and occupied by Germany?

Would the United States be able to carry on a war against Germany, the Soviet Union, Japan and Italy in these circumstances?

[maltesefalcon]

Hitler gained power in part due to fear of the German Communist Party becoming the the most powerful voice in government. Hitler was able to defend his about face in the 1939 non-aggression pact with Stalin by privately admitting he had no intention of sticking to it for long. A more formal relationship with Stalin and an earlier bond with Communist doctrine would alienate many of the powerful people who had helped the Nazis to gain and hold power.

Interesting proposal but we need to know who would support him and how the naysayers would be countered. Among those would be the Army leadership, and there would be no equivalent of the Night of the Long Knives if the army stood fast early in the game.

[Kingfish]

Bear in mind no matter what alliance Stalin and Hitler joined into the two would still view the other with great suspicion.

My guess is each would declare certain areas as their exclusive "zones of influence" with limited, if any, military cooperation.

[thaddeus_c]

Hitler gained power in part due to fear of the German Communist Party becoming the the most powerful voice in government. Hitler was able to defend his about face in the 1939 non-aggression pact with Stalin by privately admitting he had no intention of sticking to it for long. A more formal relationship with Stalin and an earlier bond with Communist doctrine would alienate many of the powerful people who had helped the Nazis to gain and hold power.

Interesting proposal but we need to know who would support him and how the naysayers would be countered. Among those would be the Army leadership, and there would be no equivalent of the Night of the Long Knives if the army stood fast early in the game.

the Army under Gen. von Seeckt was fully behind at least clandestine military cooperation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_von_Seeckt and made great distinction between Communists taking power in Germany and political and hoped for military alliance with USSR. (and include China in this putative alliance)

my view the problem would not be the Army but that 1939 Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact dealt away to Soviets the Finland-Baltics trading bloc leaving Germany too dependent (vassal state) to USSR.

[jesk]

Would the British and Americans successfully carry out D-Day?

A funny question at the military forum. In Normandy, the divisions of the 1,15,19 army did not fight for 1-2 months. They were in inaction, waiting for new amphibious operations. If the Germans had invested all their forces in Normandy at once, this is another Dunkirk. The second front was an adventure, into which the world was drawn by Hitler. Without Hitler, there is not a single chance of success of the operation.

[Guaporense]

Hitler gained power in part due to fear of the German Communist Party becoming the the most powerful voice in government. Hitler was able to defend his about face in the 1939 non-aggression pact with Stalin by privately admitting he had no intention of sticking to it for long. A more formal relationship with Stalin and an earlier bond with Communist doctrine would alienate many of the powerful people who had helped the Nazis to gain and hold power.

Interesting proposal but we need to know who would support him and how the naysayers would be countered. Among those would be the Army leadership, and there would be no equivalent of the Night of the Long Knives if the army stood fast early in the game.

A Hitler's memo from 1936 provides some evidence of what Hitler had in mind with WW2:

Since the outbreak of the French Revolution, the world has been moving with ever increasing speed toward a new conflict, the most extreme solution of which is called Bolshevism, whose essence and aim, however, are solely the elimination of those strata of mankind which have hitherto provided the leadership and their replacement by worldwide Jewry. No state will be able to withdraw or even remain at a distance from this historical conflict...It is not the aim of this memorandum to prophesy the time when the untenable situation in Europe will become an open crisis. I only want, in these lines, to set down my conviction that this crisis cannot and will not fail to arrive and that it is Germany's duty to secure her own existence by every means in face of this catastrophe, and to protect herself against it, and that from this compulsion there arises a series of conclusions relating to the most important tasks that our people have ever been set. For a victory of Bolshevism over Germany would not lead to a Versailles treaty, but to the final destruction, indeed the annihilation of the German people...

To Hitler, his war was about defeating the Soviet Union, first and foremost. An Alliance with Stalin to defeat the UK wouldn't make any sense in his mindset: the UK were their fellow aryans and Hitler wanted for Germany to be like the UK with large colonial empires.

In fact, an alliance between Germany and the UK to invade the USSR would make much more sense for Hitler.

[maltesefalcon]

Hitler could call a meeting with Stalin and discuss/settle any differences and everyone would benefit from the peace. But he was only pretending to be a friend. He would then settle all the old scores once his godson was christened.
Wait..did I say Hitler? I meant Michael Corleone. LOL

[Stiltzkin]

In fact, an alliance between Germany and the UK to invade the USSR would make much more sense for Hitler.

Well, there is info here "even before a possible conclusion and resolution in the fight against Britain, the Wehrmacht must be prepared to finish and knock out the Soviet Union in a lightning fast campaign", their attention was already turned elsewhere. Their ultimate intentions are going to remain a mystery, especially actions as those by individuals like Heß.

[ljadw]

Would the British and Americans successfully carry out D-Day?

Would India be conquered by the Axis?

Would Britain be defeated and occupied by Germany?

Would the United States be able to carry on a war against Germany, the Soviet Union, Japan and Italy in these circumstances?

1)Yes

2) Not in a thousand years

3) Not in a thousand years

4) It would be almost a piece of a cake ,as there would be no coordination between Germany, SU, Japan and Italy . US would only have to fight against Germany and Japan as the SU and Italy could not hurt US .

[jesk]

Would the British and Americans successfully carry out D-Day?

Would India be conquered by the Axis?

Would Britain be defeated and occupied by Germany?

Would the United States be able to carry on a war against Germany, the Soviet Union, Japan and Italy in these circumstances?

1)Yes

2) Not in a thousand years

3) Not in a thousand years

4) It would be almost a piece of a cake ,as there would be no coordination between Germany, SU, Japan and Italy . US would only have to fight against Germany and Japan as the SU and Italy could not hurt US .

Your opinion is grotesque about German capabilities. The Germans occupied France, Belgium, Holland, Norway, Poland, Yugoslavia, Greece, Czech. The allies of Germany were Italy, Romania, Bulgaria, Slovakia, Finland. In 1942 the Germans were 50 km from Moscow. And after all this, write: Not in a thousand years occupation of Britain and even her colony India??

[ljadw]

How would the Germans occupy Britain ? With swimming tanks ?

The Germans were not able to go to the Nile ,how could they go to India ? India had more than 300 million inhabitants , how could Germany occupy India ? And, WHY should they occupy India ?

[jesk]

How would the Germans occupy Britain ? With swimming tanks ?

The battle for Britain was conducted in order to provide German ships with a cover from the air. It is further known.

http://www.answers.com/Q/What_mistake_d ... of_Britain

The Germans were not able to go to the Nile ,how could they go to India ? India had more than 300 million inhabitants , how could Germany occupy India ? And, WHY should they occupy India ?

But why Not in a thousand years? Not necessarily through Nile break. Plans were after capture of the Caucasus to break to the Middle East. Also don't forget - everywhere Hitler's mistakes. Germany could just occupy India, having expelled British.

[saddler]

...or try dating your question two years earlier when the Soviets WERE part of the Axis forces that invaded Poland, etc. as well as attacking other countries such as Finland

[jesk]

...or try dating your question two years earlier when the Soviets WERE part of the Axis forces that invaded Poland, etc. as well as attacking other countries such as Finland

It was the solo performance - Hitler. All in him puppets. Germany is much stronger than the Soviet Union.

[ljadw]

How would the Germans occupy Britain ? With swimming tanks ?

The battle for Britain was conducted in order to provide German ships with a cover from the air. It is further known.

http://www.answers.com/Q/What_mistake_d ... of_Britain

Hitler didn't make mistakes during the BoB.

For a successful Sea Lion, the Germans needed

a strong merchant fleet,which they didn't have

a strong KM which they didn't have

air superiority,which they didn't have

to capture harbours ,which they couldn't

to land strong forces on the first day : all they could land were a few batallions which would bere helpless against a strong British Home Army


and most important : they needed several weeks of good weather,what was impossible in september .

If ONE of these conditions was impossible, SL was impossible . Not one was possible, thus a successful SL is an illusion .