What if the Soviet Union joins the Axis in 1941 and declares war on the British

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jesk
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Re: What if the Soviet Union joins the Axis in 1941 and declares war on the British

#16

Post by jesk » 14 Aug 2017, 19:48

ljadw wrote: Hitler didn't make mistakes during the BoB.
Hitler has made many mistakes. For example, in 1945 forbidden to return to Germany millions of soldiers from Kurland, Norway, Italy.
ljadw wrote: For a successful Sea Lion, the Germans needed

a strong merchant fleet,which they didn't have

a strong KM which they didn't have

air superiority,which they didn't have

to capture harbours ,which they couldn't

to land strong forces on the first day : all they could land were a few batallions which would bere helpless against a strong British Home Army


and most important : they needed several weeks of good weather,what was impossible in september .

If ONE of these conditions was impossible, SL was impossible . Not one was possible, thus a successful SL is an illusion .
Merchant fleet was in Germany, France, Holland, Belgium, Norway, Denmark, Finland, Poland. Hitler made mistakes in the air battle. There was no strong British army. All weapons are left in Dunkirk. The length of La Manche between England and France is insignificant to talk about weeks of good weather. The Germans landed quickly, created bridgeheads, advanced from them.

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Re: What if the Soviet Union joins the Axis in 1941 and declares war on the British

#17

Post by jesk » 26 Aug 2017, 20:39

https://42.tut.by/554635?utm_campaign=r ... ation_mail

Dunkirk. As Hitler has saved British from a shame

On May 10, 1940 the German troops began scale offensive at Holland, Belgium and France at the same time. In the north Germans struck the distracting blow, the main forces bypassed the Mazhino line and began advance to the southwest through Ardennes deep into of France and to the north to English Channel.
Under shocks of Germans allied troops were rolled away to the coast almost without showing resistance, except for rare combat-capable subdividings. Roadsides of roads were complete of the thrown technique: tanks, tools, trucks — the German trophy commands do not cope any more. The victory of Germans becomes a matter of time, before British the perspective loomed to lose the army.
Already on May 18 the commander of the British forwarding casing lord John Stendish Surtees Prendergast Verker Gort reported on command that the only way to save army is an evacuation through English Channel. Advancing the response from London, he began to prepare independently a withdrawal for the single suitable port with all necessary infrastructure — to English Channel.
Two days later in Dover the headquarters of evacuation which was headed by the admiral Bertram Ramsey were created. Operation received the name of Dynamo.
Miracle from Hitler
British tried to save situation and even organized several counter attacks with assistance of the French tanks. On May 21 they even managed to discard parts of the 4th army of Wehrmacht on several kilometers, the truth by the evening Germans, having tightened attack aircraft, could return the line items.
Also counter attack against the tank casing of Ewald von Kleist which occupied on May 22 Boulogne was not crowned with success. By the evening on May 24 the German tanks rushed on streets of Calais — large port to the west of Dunkirk to which there were only 16 km.
And here they appeared for two days before the main forces of allies, Germans could enter the defenseless city and to occupy the last harbor, having cut off the British from the sea and having deprived of them a possibility of evacuation.

But instead Hitler issues well-known "stop order", forbidding troops further approach. The general Heinz Guderian recalled that, having heard it, "we lost a speech power".
The general Halder tried to dispute Hitler's decision, but the Fuhrer refused to accept any arguments. Moreover, for monitoring of performance of the order the Fuhrer sent to the front of the personal officers of communication. Entrusted to be at war with British to Goering and his Luftwaffe.
Why Hitler made such decision, historians argue still. Some read that the Fuhrer wanted to save tanks, others — that to make the peace with England, the third — that was afraid of heavy losses — the allies locked by the sea would fight for certain with rage of fateful.


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Re: What if the Soviet Union joins the Axis in 1941 and declares war on the British

#18

Post by Tim Smith » 07 Sep 2017, 18:46

IMO, the USSR cannot be in the Axis unless the Japanese are OUT of the Axis.

The USSR and Japan were ideological and strategic enemies. They fought each other on two separate occasions in 1938 and 1939 over the Mongolian border. The USSR did not want to see Japan successfully conquer China, and sent aid to the Nationalist Chinese government, even though the Nationalist Chinese were anti-Communist.

To get the USSR into the Axis, Hitler would have to spurn the Japanese and end all cooperation between Germany and Japan. That means Japan is isolated, and an isolated Japan is much less likely to risk a war with the USA by attacking Pearl Harbor. Indeed, it is possible Japan might agree to withdraw from China and join the Allies, in return for very substantial economic aid from the USA.

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Re: What if the Soviet Union joins the Axis in 1941 and declares war on the British

#19

Post by thaddeus_c » 08 Sep 2017, 05:33

Tim Smith wrote:IMO, the USSR cannot be in the Axis unless the Japanese are OUT of the Axis.

The USSR and Japan were ideological and strategic enemies. They fought each other on two separate occasions in 1938 and 1939 over the Mongolian border. The USSR did not want to see Japan successfully conquer China, and sent aid to the Nationalist Chinese government, even though the Nationalist Chinese were anti-Communist.

To get the USSR into the Axis, Hitler would have to spurn the Japanese and end all cooperation between Germany and Japan. That means Japan is isolated, and an isolated Japan is much less likely to risk a war with the USA by attacking Pearl Harbor. Indeed, it is possible Japan might agree to withdraw from China and join the Allies, in return for very substantial economic aid from the USA.
German-Japanese Strange Alliance paid few dividends to either party.

it would certainly be in German interest to have Soviets in conflict with Japan.

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Re: What if the Soviet Union joins the Axis in 1941 and declares war on the British

#20

Post by thaddeus_c » 11 Sep 2017, 01:11

thaddeus_c wrote:
Tim Smith wrote:IMO, the USSR cannot be in the Axis unless the Japanese are OUT of the Axis.

The USSR and Japan were ideological and strategic enemies. They fought each other on two separate occasions in 1938 and 1939 over the Mongolian border. The USSR did not want to see Japan successfully conquer China, and sent aid to the Nationalist Chinese government, even though the Nationalist Chinese were anti-Communist.

To get the USSR into the Axis, Hitler would have to spurn the Japanese and end all cooperation between Germany and Japan. That means Japan is isolated, and an isolated Japan is much less likely to risk a war with the USA by attacking Pearl Harbor. Indeed, it is possible Japan might agree to withdraw from China and join the Allies, in return for very substantial economic aid from the USA.
German-Japanese Strange Alliance paid few dividends to either party.

it would certainly be in German interest to have Soviets in conflict with Japan.
attempted thread on at least continued cooperation between Germany and USSR if not Axis USSR viewtopic.php?f=11&t=229268

a couple of things that get forgotten, the language/culture barrier with Japan, at least Germans had numerous Russian speakers and vice versa, and for most of the 1930's Japan did not want close relations with Germany, they may have wanted some technology from Germans but shied away otherwise.

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Re: What if the Soviet Union joins the Axis in 1941 and declares war on the British

#21

Post by Nautilus » 11 Sep 2017, 11:55

There was a theory for most of the 1930's Japan did not want close relations with anyone, since the ideology of the ruling class was something akin to present day North Korea.

Actually the theory said present day North Korean system is based on the late 1930s state cult of the Imperial Japan, and with nuclear threat looming, 1945 doesn't seem too remote.

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Re: What if the Soviet Union joins the Axis in 1941 and declares war on the British

#22

Post by thaddeus_c » 12 Sep 2017, 00:29

Nautilus wrote:There was a theory for most of the 1930's Japan did not want close relations with anyone, since the ideology of the ruling class was something akin to present day North Korea.

Actually the theory said present day North Korean system is based on the late 1930s state cult of the Imperial Japan, and with nuclear threat looming, 1945 doesn't seem too remote.
one concrete result was that Japanese would not sell or "lease" submarines to Germany in 1938 - 1939.

whereas the Soviets had proposed joint facility at Mykolaiv on Black Sea (in 1920's)

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Re: What if the Soviet Union joins the Axis in 1941 and declares war on the British

#23

Post by stg 44 » 12 Sep 2017, 03:13

Tim Smith wrote:IMO, the USSR cannot be in the Axis unless the Japanese are OUT of the Axis.

The USSR and Japan were ideological and strategic enemies. They fought each other on two separate occasions in 1938 and 1939 over the Mongolian border. The USSR did not want to see Japan successfully conquer China, and sent aid to the Nationalist Chinese government, even though the Nationalist Chinese were anti-Communist.
The Nazis and Soviets were ideological and strategic enemies up to the point they signed an alliance.

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Re: What if the Soviet Union joins the Axis in 1941 and declares war on the British

#24

Post by thaddeus_c » 14 Sep 2017, 00:33

stg 44 wrote:
Tim Smith wrote:IMO, the USSR cannot be in the Axis unless the Japanese are OUT of the Axis.

The USSR and Japan were ideological and strategic enemies. They fought each other on two separate occasions in 1938 and 1939 over the Mongolian border. The USSR did not want to see Japan successfully conquer China, and sent aid to the Nationalist Chinese government, even though the Nationalist Chinese were anti-Communist.
The Nazis and Soviets were ideological and strategic enemies up to the point they signed an alliance.
of course you are correct but with Germany and USSR they did have mutual enemy to be eliminated, Germany was only willing partner to help them with technology, and collaborating with them ended (in Soviet view) chance that Germany and Allies would unite against THEM (know that may seem ludicrous now but from paranoid view at the time.)

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Re: What if the Soviet Union joins the Axis in 1941 and declares war on the British

#25

Post by BDV » 14 Sep 2017, 21:52

jesk wrote:By the evening on May 24 the German tanks rushed on streets of Calais — large port to the west of Dunkirk to which there were only 16 km.

And here they appeared for two days before the main forces of allies, Germans could enter the defenseless city and to occupy the last harbor, having cut off the British from the sea and having deprived of them a possibility of evacuation.
Two things:

1. There is 37 km from Calais to Dunkerque, Calais fell only on May 26, Dunkirk had defenders in its environs, and Ostend and Nieuwpoort were big ports within Allied control. So that part is one big ball of fabrications, exagerations and bald lies.

edit: if 10th panzer was 16 km from Dunkirk, that means it would have to travel at least 53 km (37+16) to get Calais. With Lille junction blocked by the French, the outbreak of Franco British forces from the kessel through the thin panzer line would have made the Smolensk sausage look like a paragon of containment.

2. Panzerjockeys did get their jump ahead wish in 1941, with tremendously bad results (Soltsy, Mogilev, Novohrad-Volynsky, Smolensk, Bryansk, Tver/Kalinin). That Guderian is associated with 1/2 of these is no coincidence.
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

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Re: What if the Soviet Union joins the Axis in 1941 and declares war on the British

#26

Post by jesk » 14 Sep 2017, 23:19

BDV wrote:
jesk wrote:By the evening on May 24 the German tanks rushed on streets of Calais — large port to the west of Dunkirk to which there were only 16 km.

And here they appeared for two days before the main forces of allies, Germans could enter the defenseless city and to occupy the last harbor, having cut off the British from the sea and having deprived of them a possibility of evacuation.
Two things:

1. There is 37 km from Calais to Dunkerque, Calais fell only on May 26, Dunkirk had defenders in its environs, and Ostend and Nieuwpoort were big ports within Allied control. So that part is one big ball of fabrications, exagerations and bald lies.

edit: if 10th panzer was 16 km from Dunkirk, that means it would have to travel at least 53 km (37+16) to get Calais. With Lille junction blocked by the French, the outbreak of Franco British forces from the kessel through the thin panzer line would have made the Smolensk sausage look like a paragon of containment.

2. Panzerjockeys did get their jump ahead wish in 1941, with tremendously bad results (Soltsy, Mogilev, Novohrad-Volynsky, Smolensk, Bryansk, Tver/Kalinin). That Guderian is associated with 1/2 of these is no coincidence.
German forces on May 26 were closer to Ostend and Nieuport. Only to Dunkirk the allies managed to not be surrounded. Opinions are different, but Hitler's stop order was. Also like the opportunity to move to Dunkirk.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Calais_(1940)

Churchill wrote in 1949, that the defence of Calais delayed the German attack on Dunkirk and helped to save the BEF. In 1950, Guderian denied this but in 1966, L. F. Ellis, the British official historian, wrote that three panzer divisions had been diverted by the defence of Boulogne and Calais, giving the Allies time to rush troops to the west of Dunkirk. In 2006, K-H. Frieser wrote that the halt order issued to the German unit commanders because of the Anglo-French attack at the Battle of Arras (21 May) had more effect than the siege. Hitler and the higher German commanders panicked, because of their fears of flank attacks, when the real danger was of the Allies retreating to the coast before they could be cut off. British reinforcements at Boulogne and Calais had arrived in time to forestall the Germans, when they advanced again on 22 May.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... l_Gelb.svg

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Re: What if the Soviet Union joins the Axis in 1941 and declares war on the British

#27

Post by ljadw » 15 Sep 2017, 16:57

There was only ONE PzD at "striking " distance of Dunkirk : 1 PzD which was on 15 km of Dunkirk, and as the advance of the small units of this division (a few tanks and infantry ) would be very slow (2 km per hour), it is unlikely that 1 Pz could make it to Dunkirk on 24 may .

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Re: What if the Soviet Union joins the Axis in 1941 and declares war on the British

#28

Post by ljadw » 15 Sep 2017, 17:14

It is also not true that on 26 may the Germans were closer to Ostend and Nieuport :that day ,units of AG B were still 50 km away from Ostend and Nieuport : these 2 cities were only captured on 28 may ,the day of the Belgian capitulation .

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Re: What if the Soviet Union joins the Axis in 1941 and declares war on the British

#29

Post by jesk » 16 Sep 2017, 16:29

ljadw wrote:There was only ONE PzD at "striking " distance of Dunkirk : 1 PzD which was on 15 km of Dunkirk, and as the advance of the small units of this division (a few tanks and infantry ) would be very slow (2 km per hour), it is unlikely that 1 Pz could make it to Dunkirk on 24 may .
On May 24 near Dunkirk were 1,6,8, Viking, Tottenkopf panzer divisions.16 -23 May tanks passed hundreds of kilometers. Hitler stopped them.

http://www.wwii-photos-maps.com/lagewes ... -1940.html

Image

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Re: What if the Soviet Union joins the Axis in 1941 and declares war on the British

#30

Post by jesk » 16 Sep 2017, 16:38

2,3,4,10 panzer, 20 motorized divisions all could move to surround the British. 10 panzer divisions could participate in the encirclement of the British from the west. No chance of salvation without Hitler.

http://www.wwii-photos-maps.com/lagewes ... -1940.html

The map is for May 28. What can be seen on it. The Germans do not attempt to hit Dunkirk along the English Channel. The panzer divisions advance to the south. Displace the enemy instead of surrounding.

http://www.wwii-photos-maps.com/lagewes ... -1940.html

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