What if: Anglo-Franco-Soviet Alliance in 1939

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Carl Schwamberger
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Re: What if: Anglo-Franco-Soviet Alliance in 1939

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 05 Jul 2020 06:33

Futurist wrote:
04 Jul 2020 22:03
...
How long until a coup happens in Germany once a two-front war ends up happening in this scenario?
How long did it take OTL?

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Re: What if: Anglo-Franco-Soviet Alliance in 1939

Post by Futurist » 05 Jul 2020 18:03

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
05 Jul 2020 06:33
Futurist wrote:
04 Jul 2020 22:03
...
How long until a coup happens in Germany once a two-front war ends up happening in this scenario?
How long did it take OTL?
Well, we didn't have a serious second front until June 1944, and the coup attempt was in July 1944, so, one month?

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Re: What if: Anglo-Franco-Soviet Alliance in 1939

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 05 Jul 2020 18:16

There was a conspiracy & assassination attempts earlier. I'd think the course of all that would be similar & equally depend on luck or chance in this hypothetical war.

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Re: What if: Anglo-Franco-Soviet Alliance in 1939

Post by rkka_arvgk » 06 Jul 2020 15:54

Futurist wrote:
04 Jul 2020 22:05

Being under German occupation for 1-5 years might have been perceived as being better than being under Soviet occupation for 40-100 years, though.
You're not too well-versed in Nazi racial theories, are you.
Futurist wrote:
01 Jul 2020 21:45
It seems like a couple of years of German occupation would be superior to this if the Holocaust wasn't reasonably foreseeable yet.
The quote below, which you seem to want to minimize & and seemingly justify, explains it all.
Futurist wrote:
01 Jul 2020 21:45
"When we speak of land in Europe today, we can have in mind primarily Russia and her vassal border states'" Perhaps the Polish government should have had a look at Nazi racial theory, and the place Slavs occupied in it.
He's still not advocating genocide here, technically speaking.
He's advocating the acquisition of soil for the German plow, from areas whose agricultural productivity wasn't all that great, so someone's going to go without...

Adolf was an avid reader of the novels of Karl May, set in the American West, which related the consequences of the US expansion into the West to indigenous peoples, and intended a similar fate for the Slavs, Poles & Ukrainians very much included.
Futurist wrote:
01 Jul 2020 21:45
After all, Poland managed to survive several years of German occupation in World War I, so the hope was presumably for a repeat of this during World War II--followed by an eventual Western Allied victory as in World War I, of course.


Kaiser Billy II =/= Kaiser Adolf I. See Nazi racial theories, referenced above.
In Mein Kempf, the only Jews that Hitler advocated gassing were those 12-15 thousand Jews who were demoralizing the German troops on the front lines during World War I (in other words, Jewish subversives). He was not advocating mass murdering the entire Jewish population in Mein Kampf.
The soil for the German plow were to come from the Slavs populating & farming it, Poles & Ukrainians very much included.
Futurist wrote:
01 Jul 2020 21:45
After such a victory, I am presuming that the hope would be that Poland's independence would be restored without Poland actually having to fall under Communist rule.
As the DCoS mention, long wars transform things, and the only hope of a short war involves the Polish government accepting Soviet assistance.
But even with a short war, Poland could still end up under Soviet occupation and/or under indirect Soviet rule for decades afterwards, no?
In the event of a short war, Poland has an army & a government in Warsaw, sitting at the conference table, rather than a conquered country being ignored.

And the anticommunist French government, with an army, and an anticommunist British government, are far more likely to take up Poland's cause than was the case historically.

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Re: What if: Anglo-Franco-Soviet Alliance in 1939

Post by wm » 07 Jul 2020 21:38

TheMarcksPlan wrote:
02 Jul 2020 01:38
If so that was a stupid hope. Germany was obviously going to crush Poland quickly and then was the clear favorite against France and 10 British divisions.
But strangely Polish soldiers were planting Polish flag over destroyed Berlin at the same time Hitler committed suicide with his wife and his dog.
40683.jpeg
so it wasn't really that stupid.
With the subsequent collapse of the "thousand-year" USSR, it resulted in the finest Polish victory in her history over two of her most dangerous enemies.
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Re: What if: Anglo-Franco-Soviet Alliance in 1939

Post by Futurist » 07 Jul 2020 22:30

wm wrote:
07 Jul 2020 21:38
TheMarcksPlan wrote:
02 Jul 2020 01:38
If so that was a stupid hope. Germany was obviously going to crush Poland quickly and then was the clear favorite against France and 10 British divisions.
But strangely Polish soldiers were planting Polish flag over destroyed Berlin at the same time Hitler committed suicide with his wife and his dog.

40683.jpeg

so it wasn't really that stupid.
With the subsequent collapse of the "thousand-year" USSR, it resulted in the finest Polish victory in her history over two of her most dangerous enemies.
Poland's population (especially its Jews) suffered an extremely heavy price for this Polish victory, but Yes, in geopolitical terms, Polonia emerged much stronger in 1989 than it was back in 1939.

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Re: What if: Anglo-Franco-Soviet Alliance in 1939

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 09 Jul 2020 21:04

wm wrote:
07 Jul 2020 21:38
...

But strangely Polish soldiers were planting Polish flag over destroyed Berlin at the same time Hitler committed suicide with his wife and his dog.
Polish soldiers advancing across the north German plain, from the south to Austria & Bavaria, and from the east to Berlin. The suicide is understandable.
so it wasn't really that stupid.
With the subsequent collapse of the "thousand-year" USSR, it resulted in the finest Polish victory in her history over two of her most dangerous enemies.
It pays to play a long game.

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Re: What if: Anglo-Franco-Soviet Alliance in 1939

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 09 Jul 2020 21:23

Carl Schwamberg wrote:It pays to play a long game.
The game actually started in 1795 with the Third Partition. The Second Polish Republic was a fakeout that Russia and Germany fell for. Poland like - gotcha! - we'll take 50 more years of foreign domination!

But the Poles couldn't match Russia's long game of 300 years under the Golden Horde. They gave up too soon.

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Re: What if: Anglo-Franco-Soviet Alliance in 1939

Post by Futurist » 16 Sep 2020 21:35

TheMarcksPlan wrote:
09 Jul 2020 21:23
Carl Schwamberg wrote:It pays to play a long game.
The game actually started in 1795 with the Third Partition. The Second Polish Republic was a fakeout that Russia and Germany fell for. Poland like - gotcha! - we'll take 50 more years of foreign domination!

But the Poles couldn't match Russia's long game of 300 years under the Golden Horde. They gave up too soon.
Why suffer longer under foreign domination than you have to? ;)

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Re: What if: Anglo-Franco-Soviet Alliance in 1939

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 17 Sep 2020 01:10

Futurist wrote:
16 Sep 2020 21:35
TheMarcksPlan wrote:
09 Jul 2020 21:23
Carl Schwamberg wrote:It pays to play a long game.
The game actually started in 1795 with the Third Partition. The Second Polish Republic was a fakeout that Russia and Germany fell for. Poland like - gotcha! - we'll take 50 more years of foreign domination!

But the Poles couldn't match Russia's long game of 300 years under the Golden Horde. They gave up too soon.
Why suffer longer under foreign domination than you have to? ;)
Can't tell whether you don't get the joke or you're echoing it.

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Re: What if: Anglo-Franco-Soviet Alliance in 1939

Post by Futurist » 17 Sep 2020 03:31

TheMarcksPlan wrote:
17 Sep 2020 01:10
Futurist wrote:
16 Sep 2020 21:35
TheMarcksPlan wrote:
09 Jul 2020 21:23
Carl Schwamberg wrote:It pays to play a long game.
The game actually started in 1795 with the Third Partition. The Second Polish Republic was a fakeout that Russia and Germany fell for. Poland like - gotcha! - we'll take 50 more years of foreign domination!

But the Poles couldn't match Russia's long game of 300 years under the Golden Horde. They gave up too soon.
Why suffer longer under foreign domination than you have to? ;)
Can't tell whether you don't get the joke or you're echoing it.
I got the joke; hence my wink here. :)

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