What if: Anglo-Franco-Soviet Alliance in 1939

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ljadw
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Re: What if: Anglo-Franco-Soviet Alliance in 1939

Post by ljadw » 29 May 2022 20:39

WHY did Stalin occupy Eastern Poland?
WHY did he not give it to Hitler ?
WHY did he not say to Hitler: all you can have are the territories you lost in 1918, the rest is for me ?
The reasons are
1 He was not interested in the rest of Poland : the less Poles ,the better for him . The Poles had always created problems for the Czars .
2 Eastern Poland had a majority of Ukrainians and was the cradle of Ukrainian nationalism . That's why it could not become independent or controlled by the Germans .
3 The Baltic States : as long as Poland existed, they were not a danger for him,but without Poland, they could become German satellites . That's the reason why he took them .That his fears were maybe/probably exaggerated,is an other question .
For Stalin Germany and the Baltic States were both capitalist countries and thus potential/ future enemies .
Besides : they were not honestly handed over by Hitler : Stalin took them and there was nothing that Hitler could do, unless to declare war on the USSR .

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Takao
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Re: What if: Anglo-Franco-Soviet Alliance in 1939

Post by Takao » 30 May 2022 12:12

ljadw wrote:
29 May 2022 20:39
Besides : they were not honestly handed over by Hitler : Stalin took them and there was nothing that Hitler could do, unless to declare war on the USSR .
That is incorrect. They were given, by Hitler, to Stalin in the Secret protocols of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact of 1939. Stalin took nothing that Hitler had not given him.

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Re: What if: Anglo-Franco-Soviet Alliance in 1939

Post by ljadw » 30 May 2022 13:48

And why did Hitler'' give'' the Baltics to Stalin ? Why did he not refuse to give them ? Did Stalin ask Hitler to give them ?
Hitler could not give them,as they did not belong to him .

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Takao
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Re: What if: Anglo-Franco-Soviet Alliance in 1939

Post by Takao » 30 May 2022 17:23

ljadw wrote:
30 May 2022 13:48
And why did Hitler'' give'' the Baltics to Stalin ? Why did he not refuse to give them ? Did Stalin ask Hitler to give them ?
Hitler could not give them,as they did not belong to him .
Given...
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... iy52obujuM

If Lithuania was not Germany's, than why did Stalin pay Germany for it?

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Re: What if: Anglo-Franco-Soviet Alliance in 1939

Post by ljadw » 30 May 2022 19:00

Takao wrote:
30 May 2022 17:23
ljadw wrote:
30 May 2022 13:48
And why did Hitler'' give'' the Baltics to Stalin ? Why did he not refuse to give them ? Did Stalin ask Hitler to give them ?
Hitler could not give them,as they did not belong to him .
Given...
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... iy52obujuM

If Lithuania was not Germany's, than why did Stalin pay Germany for it?
Lithuania was not Germany': the deal was that it would be divided between the Soviets and Germany . Later, there was an other deal : the Soviets would get also Germany's part of Lithuania and pay a lot of money as compensation . Germany accepted this second deal, as there was nothing they could to to prevent Stalin to take the whole of Lithuania .And Stalin paid to reassure the Germans and to satisfy them .
Stalin was still afraid, even scared about the possibility of a peace treaty between Germany and the West . See the Hess affair .
Hitler did not protest, he remained also silent when Stalin attacked Finland , a neutral country, as was Lithuania .

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Re: What if: Anglo-Franco-Soviet Alliance in 1939

Post by ljadw » 30 May 2022 19:28

Why did the Soviets build fortifications after the occupation of Lithuania and Eastern Poland ? And against whom were these fortifications (Molotov Line ) directed ?

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Takao
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Re: What if: Anglo-Franco-Soviet Alliance in 1939

Post by Takao » 30 May 2022 21:09

ljadw wrote:
30 May 2022 19:00
Lithuania was not Germany': the deal was that it would be divided between the Soviets and Germany . Later, there was an other deal : the Soviets would get also Germany's part of Lithuania and pay a lot of money as compensation . Germany accepted this second deal, as there was nothing they could to to prevent Stalin to take the whole of Lithuania .And Stalin paid to reassure the Germans and to satisfy them .
Stalin was still afraid, even scared about the possibility of a peace treaty between Germany and the West . See the Hess affair .
Hitler did not protest, he remained also silent when Stalin attacked Finland , a neutral country, as was Lithuania .
Again, you are incorrect...Please read the treaty & secret protocols provided.

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Re: What if: Anglo-Franco-Soviet Alliance in 1939

Post by ljadw » 31 May 2022 07:50

Germany did not give Lithuania to the Soviets . It renounced its claims to a part of Lithuania ,thus no partition of Lithuania ,and got as return a greater part of Poland .
There is no proof that Germany took the initiative in this question, neither that the Soviets took the initiative .
But, given the FACT that the Soviets immediately started to build fortifications at their new border with Germany,against Germany, it is a reasonable assumption that the Soviets did not want that the Germans took Lithuania.
\Why ? Because Stalin did not trust the Germans .Stalin had no decent fleet in the East Sea,thus he did not need Lithuania , but the KM could use the harbors of Lithuania in case of war with the USSR .
Stalin incorporated the population of the Baltics,5 million, mostly anti Soviet and abandoned a number of several million very anti Soviet Poles to Germany .
Who did the best deal ? Stalin .

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wm
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Re: What if: Anglo-Franco-Soviet Alliance in 1939

Post by wm » 31 May 2022 08:53

The Soviets built fortifications because it was part of their military doctrine. They built the impressive Stalin line and then, after the borders changed, had to abandon it and built the Molotov line from scratch.

Of course Hitler could have stopped Stalin in Lithuania; he could have retaliated - economically, politically, militarily (for example, by providing help to Finland), or even declared war.

But, as it happened, Germany occupied the Lublin Voivodeship and part of the Warsaw Voivodeship (initially allocated to Stalin), so Hitler graciously compensated for the loss by giving Lithuania to Stalin. Obviously, Stalin didn't believe he would be able to get Lithuania for free.

So both Hitler and Stalin pursued their own Lebensraum, and both basically for the same reason - to gain more security for their countries.

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Re: What if: Anglo-Franco-Soviet Alliance in 1939

Post by ljadw » 31 May 2022 12:06

All German retaliations risked to result in Soviet retaliations : less oil,less food deliveries and even to make the USSR an ally of the West . Hitler could attack in the West in May 1940 only because he could strip his eastern border of combat ready divisions,and this was only possible because of the good relations with the Soviets .
And the Molotov line was build because the Soviets did not trust Germany .
And about Lublin and Warsaw: Hitler could have ordered his troops to withdraw .
It is also questionable to say that Hitler gave Lithuania to the Soviets as compensation for Warsaw and Lublin .If it was so , why did Stalin give a financial compensation to Germany of $ 75 million ,for the ''loss '' of Lithuania ?
Last point : was it Stalin who said :I want Lithuania in the place of Warsaw and Lublin or was it Hitler who proposed Lithuania in trhe place of Lublin and Warsaw ?
Last edited by ljadw on 31 May 2022 20:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Takao
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Re: What if: Anglo-Franco-Soviet Alliance in 1939

Post by Takao » 31 May 2022 12:32

If the Soviets did not trust the Germans, then they did not have good relations.

If the Soviets did not trust the Germans, the Soviets would not have made the Pact.

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Re: What if: Anglo-Franco-Soviet Alliance in 1939

Post by ljadw » 31 May 2022 20:38

If the Soviets did trust the Germans, they would not have build the Molotov line or given them Eastern Poland .They did not because the risk was too great .
Stalin trusted NO ONE . That's why he remained dictator til his death .
If Hitler trusted Stalin , he would have given him Warsaw and Lublin . He did not,because the risk was too great .
Political leaders who trust other political leaders ,are very naive persons . And one can not say that Stalin or Hitler were naive.
Chamberlain did not trust Halifax, FDR, Hitler,Daladier, Simon..
Daladier did not trust Bonnet,...
Mussolini did not trust Ciano .
FDR did not trust Garner or Wallace .
Biden does not trust Harris .
Putin trust no one .

ljadw
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Re: What if: Anglo-Franco-Soviet Alliance in 1939

Post by ljadw » 31 May 2022 20:40

Takao wrote:
31 May 2022 12:32


If the Soviets did not trust the Germans, the Soviets would not have made the Pact.
The Soviets did not made the pact : they cosigned the pact because otherwise Hitler would have occupied Eastern Poland with its millions of Ukrainians and with the OUN .

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Takao
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Re: What if: Anglo-Franco-Soviet Alliance in 1939

Post by Takao » 31 May 2022 20:47

The Soviets did not make the pact?

They just signed it...

Thus, Hitler gave the Soviets the territories you have been claiming he did not.

Thank you for finally admitting that.

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Re: What if: Anglo-Franco-Soviet Alliance in 1939

Post by ljadw » 01 Jun 2022 11:12

No : I did not admit that Hitler gave the Soviets territories : Hitler did not give Eastern Poland to the Soviets :he did not own Eastern Poland .
And you can not give what you don't own .

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