Best German weapon/vehicle etc to reverse engineer/copy

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Batman912
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Best German weapon/vehicle etc to reverse engineer/copy

#1

Post by Batman912 » 02 Oct 2017, 20:41

If say America, Russia or Britain decided to copy or use German equipment be it aircraft, tanks, small arms etc which would you think would be the best to reverse engineer or copy? For me it would be the MG42.

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stg 44
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Re: Best German weapon/vehicle etc to reverse engineer/copy

#2

Post by stg 44 » 02 Oct 2017, 21:31

Batman912 wrote:If say America, Russia or Britain decided to copy or use German equipment be it aircraft, tanks, small arms etc which would you think would be the best to reverse engineer or copy? For me it would be the MG42.
Stg 44/45. Better than their post-war choices. The MG42 is fine as a GPMG if chambered in .30-06, but is still too heavy for a SAW. I'd actually like to see a RPK style StG weapon, which would work fine for a 'short' .30-06. You could argue the M1 Carbine already filled that role, but the cartridge was much less powerful and the bullet fired was aerodynamically abysmal. Using the same weight, a steel cored spitzer tip/boattail round like the 7.92 Kurz was absolutely possible and would have performed better than the flat based round nose historical bullet. Other than that I'm not really sure the US or Britain really should have copied a German design.

For the Soviets, they needed to make their own indigenous designs, as they were tailored to their resources and industrial style, not the German style. But they too could have adopted an early StG 44 style weapon; they did copy the 7.92 Kurz and made their own 7.62 version after encountering the StG. Fun fact, their 7.62 Tokarev round used in the PPSH was actually copied from a German round and the Germans sold them the equipment to make it in the 1920s.

For the Soviets too they could have tried to implement a GPMG family of weapons like the MG34/42 concept around existing weapons designs. The RP-46 for instance could have been built during the war and was a belt fed version of their LMG, which could then have been adapted to be a family of machine guns if needed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degtyaryo ... n#Variants


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Re: Best German weapon/vehicle etc to reverse engineer/copy

#3

Post by Yoozername » 03 Oct 2017, 05:56

https://www.forgottenweapons.com/light- ... -gun-mg42/

The US did try but it didn't work due to technical/prototyping reasons. The US paratroopers could have used a weapon like this since they did not use the BAR but rather, the M1919A4 as squad weapon.

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Re: Best German weapon/vehicle etc to reverse engineer/copy

#4

Post by Markus Becker » 03 Oct 2017, 13:39

It depends on the country. For the USA the weapon to reverse engineer is IMO the MG 42. Aside from the M2 the US machine guns look obsolescent to me. The BAR was more an automatic rifle and less a light machine gun, the M1919 was literally heavy due to the tripod. The (modified)MG 42 is still in service with almost 40 nations.

The problem is how to get this done in time. Even if the US Army had not stopped it’s attempt to make an MG 42 in .30-06 the gun would not have entered production before the end of the war.

How about the army realizing the lack of a modern light machine gun in the late 1930’s and decides to buy some foreign machine guns “for study” and deciding that a GPMG like the MG 34 is the best concept?

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Re: Best German weapon/vehicle etc to reverse engineer/copy

#5

Post by stg 44 » 03 Oct 2017, 16:05

Markus Becker wrote:It depends on the country. For the USA the weapon to reverse engineer is IMO the MG 42. Aside from the M2 the US machine guns look obsolescent to me. The BAR was more an automatic rifle and less a light machine gun, the M1919 was literally heavy due to the tripod. The (modified)MG 42 is still in service with almost 40 nations.

The problem is how to get this done in time. Even if the US Army had not stopped it’s attempt to make an MG 42 in .30-06 the gun would not have entered production before the end of the war.

How about the army realizing the lack of a modern light machine gun in the late 1930’s and decides to buy some foreign machine guns “for study” and deciding that a GPMG like the MG 34 is the best concept?
That gets into the 'not made here' problem. The US was notorious for that, even going to far as to repeatedly adopt objectively worse equipment just to buy American. The BAR wasn't necessarily obsolescent as the Belgians proved, they just needed to adopt the Belgian innovations; also as an automatic rifle doctrinally it had it's use as a SAW, but the American version had it's flaws that weren't rectified like with what the Belgians had done to improve it and in fact some American inventors had done to upgrade it, but were not listened to. Eventually post-WW2 FN eventually used it as the basis for the FN MAG, so the core design was quite sound, the US just didn't take advantage of the upgrades available, like the quick change barrel and belt feeding systems.

Practically speaking the US should have bought a bunch of foreign equipment pre-war or ripped it off during the war, but that wasn't going to practically happen for a number of reasons.

Another good one they should have done was adopt a Panzerfaust clone with improvements.

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Re: Best German weapon/vehicle etc to reverse engineer/copy

#6

Post by stg 44 » 03 Oct 2017, 16:11

Yoozername wrote:https://www.forgottenweapons.com/light- ... -gun-mg42/

The US did try but it didn't work due to technical/prototyping reasons. The US paratroopers could have used a weapon like this since they did not use the BAR but rather, the M1919A4 as squad weapon.
AFAIK the US company forgot to switch the design to accommodate the US .30-06, which led to massive issues.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MG_42#T24_machine_gun
When the prototype was fired at Aberdeen Proving Ground, it fired only one shot and failed to eject the cartridge. A second attempt had the same result. The engineers had made no adjustment to the design to accommodate the longer .30-06 cartridge.[28]
Smith, W.H.B (1973). Small Arms of the World (10th ed.). Stackpole. p. 442.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T24_machine_gun

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Re: Best German weapon/vehicle etc to reverse engineer/copy

#7

Post by Yoozername » 03 Oct 2017, 16:55

The US adopted the 57mm ATG from the British. Also they adopted the Bofors 40mm from the Swedes. Small arms were mostly self-produced and they were excellent weapons. The US had the bad experience in WWI of trying to use the French light MG Chauchat. Pre-war, the defense budget was tight and it is amazing that weapons like the Garand got accepted and fielded.

The BAR is more of a personal weapon than the typical WWII LMG. The US Garand rifle, being semi-automatic, contributed much to the squads firepower. If a LMG is going to be 'crew served', meaning at least two men man and operate it, then it should be belt-fed. Some say the BAR 20 round magazine was designed so as to keep the rate of fire down. There was no battlefield way to change barrels.

The US company organization was really a miniaturized battalion. That meaning it had a weapons platoon that had the belt fed MGs (M1919A4) and the 60mm mortars. Only the paratroopers relied on the M1919A4 (and later the A6) as a squad weapon. The rate of fire that a M1919A4 could sustain was relatively low, something like 120 rounds a minute.

So, the US TO&E would have to fundamentally change if a belt fed, quick change barrel weapon like the MG42 clone was adopted. If you read the report I linked to, the T42 had a heavier bolt in an attempt to slow the rate of fire. This probably led to many of the issues it had. Clearly, the BAR, which actually was machined out of a block of steel, was an expensive weapon as well as a poor substitute for a MG42 or even a Bren.

The panzerfaust would need more than improvements. It was a logistical pig since the whole thing had to be crated and the space it took up would tax the US shipping/distribution. The disposable concept would need to be replaced with something like the RPG concept. The panzerfaust is basically a unrifled recoilless 'gun'. It was another German weapon that did not survive WWII with most nations using rocket powered LATW or something like the Carl Gustav recoilless gun afterwards. The US should have just taken the Panzershreck ideas, larger rockets and better fuse, and ran with it. Basically the super-bazooka.
Last edited by Yoozername on 04 Oct 2017, 06:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Best German weapon/vehicle etc to reverse engineer/copy

#8

Post by T. A. Gardner » 03 Oct 2017, 18:57

stg 44 wrote:
Markus Becker wrote:It depends on the country. For the USA the weapon to reverse engineer is IMO the MG 42. Aside from the M2 the US machine guns look obsolescent to me. The BAR was more an automatic rifle and less a light machine gun, the M1919 was literally heavy due to the tripod. The (modified)MG 42 is still in service with almost 40 nations.

The problem is how to get this done in time. Even if the US Army had not stopped it’s attempt to make an MG 42 in .30-06 the gun would not have entered production before the end of the war.

How about the army realizing the lack of a modern light machine gun in the late 1930’s and decides to buy some foreign machine guns “for study” and deciding that a GPMG like the MG 34 is the best concept?
That gets into the 'not made here' problem. The US was notorious for that, even going to far as to repeatedly adopt objectively worse equipment just to buy American. The BAR wasn't necessarily obsolescent as the Belgians proved, they just needed to adopt the Belgian innovations; also as an automatic rifle doctrinally it had it's use as a SAW, but the American version had it's flaws that weren't rectified like with what the Belgians had done to improve it and in fact some American inventors had done to upgrade it, but were not listened to. Eventually post-WW2 FN eventually used it as the basis for the FN MAG, so the core design was quite sound, the US just didn't take advantage of the upgrades available, like the quick change barrel and belt feeding systems.

Practically speaking the US should have bought a bunch of foreign equipment pre-war or ripped it off during the war, but that wasn't going to practically happen for a number of reasons.

Another good one they should have done was adopt a Panzerfaust clone with improvements.
The US did adopt a "bunch of foreign equipment" when it benefited them. The 6 pdr antitank gun, 40mm Bofors (both Swedish and Dutch Hazemeyer pattern), 20mm Orikelion, French Brandt mortars, to name a few. Small arms are way down the list of importance in terms of military weapons for an industrial war like WW 2.

Now, one that would have made sense was replacing the 57mm M1 and 3" M5 antitank guns with an improved, reverse engineered, German Pak 40 7.5cm antitank gun.
This would have given the US a better all-around towed antitank gun, replacing both of the above. As the Pak 40 weighs about 3300 lbs., it's much lighter than the 3" M5 at 5800 lbs. And, it out performs the 57mm M1 which weights 2500 lbs. This weapon engineered to US specs (giving it things like pneumatic tires for high speed towing, revised controls and gun sight compatible with US ones) would have given the US Army a very useful antitank and support weapon.

Doing an MG 42 rip off might have been a good idea.

The US did upsize the bazooka based on captured Panzerschreks. The Panzerfaust was worthless for the US. Lacks range, is bulky for a one-shot weapon, and really doesn't add anything when you have plenty of tanks, tank destroyers, antitank guns, and artillery. An upgraded bazooka (the M20 "Super" bazooka at 3.5") was sufficiently better. It was just slow in being developed.

The 120mm mortar is no big improvement over the US 4.2". There's nothing in the German artillery park really worth copying.

Trucks and motor vehicles? Nothing overall stands out there. I think the US had in the 6 x 6 2 1/2 ton truck a pretty optimal vehicle given it was widely copied and remained a world standard into the 90's.

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Re: Best German weapon/vehicle etc to reverse engineer/copy

#9

Post by Markus Becker » 03 Oct 2017, 20:03

stg 44 wrote: That gets into the 'not made here' problem. The US was notorious for that, even going to far as to repeatedly adopt objectively worse equipment just to buy American. The BAR wasn't necessarily obsolescent as the Belgians proved, they just needed to adopt the Belgian innovations;
Not necessarily. The army did buy two Pak 36 'for study' and came up with its own 37mm gun as a result. I'm thinking along these lines. Adopting the GPMG concept not copying the gun. Though adopting an improved BAR is a valid alternative.

edit:

Regarding AT guns. The Pak 40 was a bit heavy for a towed gun. Better make it SP but the US had that with the M10 and so one.

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Re: Best German weapon/vehicle etc to reverse engineer/copy

#10

Post by stg 44 » 03 Oct 2017, 20:17

T. A. Gardner wrote: The US did adopt a "bunch of foreign equipment" when it benefited them. The 6 pdr antitank gun, 40mm Bofors (both Swedish and Dutch Hazemeyer pattern), 20mm Orikelion, French Brandt mortars, to name a few. Small arms are way down the list of importance in terms of military weapons for an industrial war like WW 2.
I was talking about small arms.
T. A. Gardner wrote: The US did upsize the bazooka based on captured Panzerschreks. The Panzerfaust was worthless for the US. Lacks range, is bulky for a one-shot weapon, and really doesn't add anything when you have plenty of tanks, tank destroyers, antitank guns, and artillery. An upgraded bazooka (the M20 "Super" bazooka at 3.5") was sufficiently better. It was just slow in being developed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzerfau ... _countries
The US 82nd Airborne Division captured some Panzerfäuste in the Sicilian campaign, and later during the fighting in Normandy. Finding them more effective than their own Bazookas, they held onto them and used them during the later stages of the French campaign, even dropping with them into the Netherlands during Operation Market Garden. They captured an ammunition dump of Panzerfäuste near Nijmegen, and used them through the Ardennes Offensive toward the end of the war.[13]
The Soviets too made major use of them and found them better than the Bazooka.
T. A. Gardner wrote: The 120mm mortar is no big improvement over the US 4.2". There's nothing in the German artillery park really worth copying.
Oh?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M2_4.2_inch_mortar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granatwerfer_42

In terms of anything that could be put into production by the time it was captured, yes, copying Germany artillery was pretty pointless.
Markus Becker wrote: Though adopting an improved BAR is a valid alternative.
Swedes made it belt fed and with a quick change barrel:
http://www.gotavapen.se/gota/artiklar/k ... sh_kg2.htm
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Re: Best German weapon/vehicle etc to reverse engineer/copy

#11

Post by MarkF617 » 03 Oct 2017, 22:33

Hello,

The only thing I can think of is Jerry Cans. Allied weaponry was usually at least adequate to the task and often superior. When something was inadequate something could be got from another ally (eg Shermans and Grants to the British in the desert and Spitfires to the USAAF) or something was already in the works (eg Cromwells and Challenger for the British and Thunderbolts, Lightnings and Mustangs for the Americans).
It was mentioned that the Americans could reverse engineer a PAK40. Why bother? They had tanks and tank destroyers with 90mm guns on the way. If they were desperate for an anti tank gun they would have built the 17 pounder under licence. A better gun for less hastle. They didn't because they didn't need to.

Each side only had so much money for reserch so this was directed where it was needed. The Germans, fighting the largest land battle ever needed to build monster tanks and assault rifles to even the odds. With the Luftwaffe struggleing to fight 1000 bomber raids and practically unable to hit back rocket and jet fighters to defend and V1s and V2s were prioritised. On the Allied side anti U-Boat technology and night navigation aids were the priority along with anything that would help storm Fortress Europe. What I am trying to say here is that what thd Allies really needed tbe Germans didn't make or made inferior.

Thanks

Mark

PS Sorry I missed out the Soviets but I don't know enough about them to comment.
You know you're British when you drive your German car to an Irish pub for a pint of Belgian beer before having an Indian meal. When you get home you sit on your Sweedish sofa and watch American programs on your Japanese TV.

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Re: Best German weapon/vehicle etc to reverse engineer/copy

#12

Post by Yoozername » 04 Oct 2017, 06:22

Swedes made it belt fed and with a quick change barrel:
http://www.gotavapen.se/gota/artiklar/k ... sh_kg2.htm
The Swedes made it a 6.5mm and the belted version was not accepted. This quote below is from the link you actually posted...
Belt fed Light Machine gun m/1937.

As stated above the Swedish army was quite satisfied with kg m/37 and tests were made to change it for belt feeding after 2nd WW. Carl Gustaf Stads Gun Factory managed with this. Trial tests were made with the belt feeding of this very reliable gun.

The drawback of the construction was that when you emptied the gun after shooting four loaded cartridges are fell down. If this happens in snow or in thick vegetation the live ammo might be lost and cause harm to children who might find them. Another important drawback of this system is that the last shots in each link will never be fired because there are no more cartridges to lift them.
This was most likely the reason for dropping this modification.
So, I think your timeline is a bit off as well as some 'facts' and Wiki-drops you are making.

The US Army used the same ammunition in the Browning 30 cal machineguns, BAR and Garand BTW. If they went for any 'SAW' type belted weapon, they would want to keep that round.

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Re: Best German weapon/vehicle etc to reverse engineer/copy

#13

Post by Yoozername » 04 Oct 2017, 07:02

Now, one that would have made sense was replacing the 57mm M1 and 3" M5 antitank guns with an improved, reverse engineered, German Pak 40 7.5cm antitank gun.
This would have given the US a better all-around towed antitank gun, replacing both of the above. As the Pak 40 weighs about 3300 lbs., it's much lighter than the 3" M5 at 5800 lbs. And, it out performs the 57mm M1 which weights 2500 lbs. This weapon engineered to US specs (giving it things like pneumatic tires for high speed towing, revised controls and gun sight compatible with US ones) would have given the US Army a very useful antitank and support weapon.
The US should have just copied the Pzgr 39 projectile design for their antitank guns and TD and sherman 76mm. There are certainly reports (online BTW) of the US testing its effectiveness, and the conclusions certainly show that the Germans had a greatly superior projectile design. The US 3 inch and 76mm guns could already attain a high velocity, but they needed a better projectile.

As far as panzerfaust 30, it is really a defensive weapon and did not fit into the attacking nation's needs in 1944/1945. I believe the Panzerfaust 60 did not come out till fall of 1944? I am sure captured ones were used, but that is not the topic.

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Re: Best German weapon/vehicle etc to reverse engineer/copy

#14

Post by stg 44 » 04 Oct 2017, 14:30

Yoozername wrote:
Swedes made it belt fed and with a quick change barrel:
http://www.gotavapen.se/gota/artiklar/k ... sh_kg2.htm
The Swedes made it a 6.5mm and the belted version was not accepted. This quote below is from the link you actually posted...
Sold to them by the Belgians chambered in 6.5mm. Not that that actually matters for belt feeding; a US developer produced a belt fed version as well.
Yoozername wrote:
The drawback of the construction was that when you emptied the gun after shooting four loaded cartridges are fell down. If this happens in snow or in thick vegetation the live ammo might be lost and cause harm to children who might find them. Another important drawback of this system is that the last shots in each link will never be fired because there are no more cartridges to lift them.
This was most likely the reason for dropping this modification.
The US Army used the same ammunition in the Browning 30 cal machineguns, BAR and Garand BTW. If they went for any 'SAW' type belted weapon, they would want to keep that round.
Yes the belt feed mechanism had problems, the thing is this wasn't the only belt feed system developed for the BAR. The Swedish example is just a picture of what such a system would look like externally; an American inventor developed an earlier system independently for the .30-06:
https://www.google.com/patents/US2032376

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Re: Best German weapon/vehicle etc to reverse engineer/copy

#15

Post by Sheldrake » 04 Oct 2017, 15:34

Batman912 wrote:If say America, Russia or Britain decided to copy or use German equipment be it aircraft, tanks, small arms etc which would you think would be the best to reverse engineer or copy? For me it would be the MG42.
The verdict of post war history suggests

#1 The A4 (V2) was copied by both USA and USSR.

#2 The type XXI Electric submarine copied by everyone post war.

#3 30 mm Mauser MG 213 inspired the development of post war British and French aircraft mounted cannon.

#4 The MG 42 - which provided inspiration for the M60 as well as continual service as the MG3

#5 The Panther influenced post war western tank design. The tiger less so. No one was impressed enough by the interleaved road wheels to want to copy either of them...

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