Rommel dies in 1941, who replaces him?

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Gooner1
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Re: Rommel dies in 1941, who replaces him?

#46

Post by Gooner1 » 13 Oct 2017, 15:51

ljadw wrote:
Gooner1 wrote:
In one month of fighting,the BEF lost 68000 men .
68,000 casualties from a force of over 400,000 whose Allies had collapsed and with their backs to the sea is a poor return for the Germans.

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Urmel
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Re: Rommel dies in 1941, who replaces him?

#47

Post by Urmel » 13 Oct 2017, 17:27

ljadw wrote:No : the AK started with one division, the second one arrived only in the summer .
Err, no. Unless you live somewhere where summer starts in April. In which case, lucky you.

Both 5. Leichte and 15. Panzer were originally slated for the D.A.K.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42


ljadw
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Re: Rommel dies in 1941, who replaces him?

#48

Post by ljadw » 13 Oct 2017, 19:21

Gooner1 wrote:
ljadw wrote:
Gooner1 wrote:
In one month of fighting,the BEF lost 68000 men .
68,000 casualties from a force of over 400,000 whose Allies had collapsed and with their backs to the sea is a poor return for the Germans.
On 10 may 1940 there were 12 British divisions (400000 men) on the continent, a month later they had left .


In february 1941 there was an Axis army in NA, in may 1942, it had left .

The truth is that the German generals (mainly those from AGB ) succeeded in 1940, while Rommel failed in NA . Thus: Rommel being the best German general against the British .... :lol:

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Re: Rommel dies in 1941, who replaces him?

#49

Post by ljadw » 13 Oct 2017, 19:37

Urmel wrote:
ljadw wrote:No : the AK started with one division, the second one arrived only in the summer .
Err, no. Unless you live somewhere where summer starts in April. In which case, lucky you.

Both 5. Leichte and 15. Panzer were originally slated for the D.A.K.
In february(AFTER the Italians had stopped the Western Desert Force) the 5th Pz Regiment arrived,which became the 5th Light Division,which became 21 PzD .

The main elements of 15th PzD arrived in may . :its 8 Pz Regiment landed on 6 may .

That both were slated for NA does not mean that both arrived simulteanously in NA .The Germans were already fighting BEFORE the arrival of the first elements of 15 PzD

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Urmel
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Re: Rommel dies in 1941, who replaces him?

#50

Post by Urmel » 18 Oct 2017, 17:48

May is not summer.
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: Rommel dies in 1941, who replaces him?

#51

Post by ljadw » 19 Oct 2017, 12:26

Max temperature in may in Tripoli : 27 Celsius

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Re: Rommel dies in 1941, who replaces him?

#52

Post by MarkN » 19 Oct 2017, 14:13

ljadw wrote: In february(AFTER the Italians had stopped the Western Desert Force)
The Italians did not stop WDF.
ljadw wrote:In february ... the 5th Pz Regiment arrived,
No it didn't. The first part of Pz.Regt.5 arrived on 8 March
ljadw wrote: ... which became the 5th Light Division,
No it didn't.
ljadw wrote: ... which became 21 PzD .
It did. Several months later.
ljadw wrote: The main elements of 15th PzD arrived in may .
No they didn't. But it depends on how you define the word 'main'. The first part of 15.Pz-Div arrived on 1 April. Stab 15.Pz-Div arrived 14 April.
ljadw wrote: ... :its 8 Pz Regiment landed on 6 may .
No it didn't. It started to arrive in April.
ljadw wrote: That both were slated for NA does not mean that both arrived simulteanously in NA .
It was impossible for them to arrive "simulteanously" - everything on the same day. How does that simple fact help the understanding that a corps-level commander was required as multiple divisions were under command? However, the two divisions were arriving "simultaneously" in the sense that 15.Pz-Div had started to arrive before all of 5.lei-Div had arrived.
ljadw wrote: The Germans were already fighting BEFORE the arrival of the first elements of 15 PzD
So what? How does that simple fact help the understanding that a corps-level commander was required as multiple divisions were under command? The Germans were already fighting before 5.lei-Div was complete!!!
ljadw wrote:Max temperature in may in Tripoli : 27 Celsius
So what? Min temperature in may in Tripoli : 12 Celsius. Today it is 24C on my balcony, in Europe, but it is definitely not summer.

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Re: Rommel dies in 1941, who replaces him?

#53

Post by NBrotz » 19 Oct 2017, 18:22

Well MarkN, I agree with everything you said, but just to reinforce your points:
MarkN wrote:
ljadw wrote: In february(AFTER the Italians had stopped the Western Desert Force)
The Italians did not stop WDF.
Indeed, the Italians didn't stop the Western Desert Force from invading Tripolitania in the aftermath of Operation Compass. It was a combination of their logistical situation (worn-out tanks) and the threat of German attack on Greece, that convinced the British to withdraw their most of units and assume the defensive in Cyrenaica. The Italian 5th Army won no defensive victory after the Italian 10th was destroyed at Beda Fomm. Moreover, despite the large number of soldiers at the 5th's disposal, it is questionable whether it could have repelled a renewed offensive.
MarkN wrote:
ljadw wrote:In february ... the 5th Pz Regiment arrived,
No it didn't. The first part of Pz.Regt.5 arrived on 8 March
Aufklärungs Abteilung 3 and Panzerjäger Abteilung 39 were the first German ground combat units to arrive, sometime in mid-February (I've seen books citing between Feb. 13-16 - likely a time gap between arrival, disembarkation, and assembly). Further evidenced by the fact that Pz.Rgt.5 wasn't part of the original Sperrverband Libyen.
MarkN wrote:
ljadw wrote: ... which became the 5th Light Division,
No it didn't.
Indeed, the nucleus of 5.Leichte-Division was Stab 3.Panzerbrigade (Von Funck's previous command), Pz.Rgt.5 being a constituent of said brigade - which was from the 3rd PzD that contributed most of 5.Leichte-Division's composition.
MarkN wrote:
ljadw wrote: The main elements of 15th PzD arrived in may .
No they didn't. But it depends on how you define the word 'main'. The first part of 15.Pz-Div arrived on 1 April. Stab 15.Pz-Div arrived 14 April.
Panzer-Jäger-Abteilung 33 on 30 March/1 April.
MarkN wrote:
ljadw wrote: ... :its 8 Pz Regiment landed on 6 may .
No it didn't. It started to arrive in April.
Started to arrive 24-25 of April - but we're arguing technicalities at this point. My question is this: when did they actually reach the front lines?
MarkN wrote:
ljadw wrote: The Germans were already fighting BEFORE the arrival of the first elements of 15 PzD
So what? How does that simple fact help the understanding that a corps-level commander was required as multiple divisions were under command? The Germans were already fighting before 5.lei-Div was complete!!!
That a corps-level commanding general was needed is the root of the argument, isn't it?

We have to remember that due to rank inflation brought on by the wave of celebratory promotions in 1940, Rommel as a Generalleutnant was especially junior for a corps commander, almost all of whom were General der Waffengattung. Additionally, while the Afrikakorps was relatively small, it was lavishly equipped and an independent command no less. Finally, Rommel had to coordinate with Generale Di Corpo D'Armata Italo Gariboldi and General der Flieger Hans Geisler (Fliegerkorps X, to which Fliegerführer Afrika was subordinated), both of whom outranked him. That only elements of two German divisions participated in Sonnenblume isn't telling the whole story of Italian and Luftwaffe units that were tactically subordinated to Rommel.
Urmel wrote:May is not summer.
MarkN wrote:
ljadw wrote:Max temperature in may in Tripoli : 27 Celsius
So what? Min temperature in may in Tripoli : 12 Celsius. Today it is 24C on my balcony, in Europe, but it is definitely not summer.
Seasons are not based on temperature. Seasons have a predetermined start and end date. Summer in the northern hemisphere begins June 1.

histan
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Re: Rommel dies in 1941, who replaces him?

#54

Post by histan » 19 Oct 2017, 22:00

To be pedantic (from the UK Met Office):
"When is the first day of summer?
It depends on whether you are referring to the astronomical or meteorological summer.

Usually when we talk about the first day of summer we are referring to the astronomical summer which is defined by the Earth's axis and orbit around the sun. However, at the Met Office we also mark the beginning of a 'meteorological summer'.

This year the astronomical summer begins on 21 June 2017 and ends on 22 September 2017.

The meteorological summer begins on 01 June 2017 and ends on 31 August 2017."

In the UK the weather in the months of June, July and August is what we usually regard as "Summer Weather"

By the definition usually used in 1941 - 15 Panzer Division arrived in the early to middle part of Spring.

The original plan was to send a division size force and so a Generalmajor (like von Funck) was an appropriate rank for its commander.

In February 1941 it was decided (as had been suggested both earlier by von Thoma and at that time by von Funck) that a larger, corps sized force, was needed and so a more senior ranked officer was needed. In 1939 and 1940 newly appointed corps commanders usually held the rank of Generalleutnant and often held that rank for some time before their promotion to "Waffen " General.

What is unusual about Rommel is that he was a Generalmajor at that time and was appointed (ernannt not befördert) to the rank of Generalleutnant at the same time as he was selected to command in Afrika, that is effective from (mit Wirkung vom) 07.02.1941.

Regards

John

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Re: Rommel dies in 1941, who replaces him?

#55

Post by MarkN » 20 Oct 2017, 13:01

NBrotz,

Not disagreeing either but adding more flesh to the bones.
NBrotz wrote: Aufklärungs Abteilung 3 and Panzerjäger Abteilung 39 were the first German ground combat units to arrive, sometime in mid-February (I've seen books citing between Feb. 13-16 - likely a time gap between arrival, disembarkation, and assembly).
Rommel's "Erster lagebericht" dated 14 Feb shows the German forces then in Libya. At that point it was non-combat support units and command staff only. Then, as you wrote, AA.3 and Pz.Jag.Abt.39 were next. All forces originally ascribed to the Sperrverband Lybien.
NBrotz wrote: My question is this: when did they actually reach the front lines?
I posted this earlier in another thread. Information from DAK KTB. I believe the first packet Jentz has as arriving on 24th not 25th.
MarkN wrote:Panzer Regiment 8 arrived in three packets in North Africa.

(1) Stab Pz.Regt.8 and 1.Kp landed in Tripoli on 25 April and arrived in the 'forward area' on 9 May (14 days later).
(2) Stab I.Abt, 2., 3., and 5.Kp landed in Tripoli on 2 May and arrived in the 'forward area' on 12 May (10 days later).
(3) Stab II.Abt, 6., and 7.Kp landed in Tripoli on 6 May and arrived in the 'forward area' on 28 May (22 days later).
NBrotz wrote: That a corps-level commanding general was needed is the root of the argument, isn't it?
I think that is the essence too.

The problem stems from poster ljadw's efforts here:
ljadw wrote: One forgets also that the majority of the Axis forces in NA were Italians, not Germans ad that their role was more important than the one of the Germans, whatever they may have told during and after the war .
viewtopic.php?p=2101655#p2101655
...and...
ljadw wrote:Manstein was too old for NA and to high on the ladder : he was already a corps commander ,while in NA he would command only one German division and give advices to the Italians .
viewtopic.php?p=2101658#p2101658
He/she started with inaccuracies and a poor understanding of the subject. Then, having been called out by others, he/she decided to respond by posting comments and dates to 'prove' his/her point. Comments and dates which were falsehoods. I don't know whether those falsehoods were merely a further reflection of the inaccurate and poor understanding of the subject or whether there were simply invented by the poster to try and win an internet argument that had already been lost.

Evidence (from the DAK KTB) that Rommel, in his very first conversation (6 Feb) with Hitler regarding his new appointment, was discussing the "Entsendung einer weiteren Panzerdivision fur den Fall".
Image

Additionally, here is a very brief excerpt from a 3 page sitrep sent by Rommel to his adjutant Oberst Schmundt dated 21 Feb before the DAK had been officially recognised as such and his command was still known as Der Befehlshaber der deutschen Truppen in Lybien.
Image
Image

Poster ljadw is mistaken in his/her belief that the DAK command was only originally pinged as a divisional-level appointment and the commander would only "advise" the Italians. BEFORE DAK officially came into existence, Rommel was already commanding "... alle schnellen Truppen der Italiener". Later documents show he commanded the Ariete Division, another motorised infantry division as well as other adhoc elements such as Kolonna Santamaria before the arrival of 15.Pz-Div. In otherwords, a corps level command from the outset.

I suspect that von Funck was too junior to be considered for command of the DAK. He may (or may not) have been originally considered to command 5.le-Div once Sperrverband Libyen/Lybien was folded into the new formation.

PS.
Is the correct spelling Lybien or Libyen? I typed one, then went back and corrected it when I reread the images I'd posted and then on final proof read saw there were two versions!!!!!!

histan
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Re: Rommel dies in 1941, who replaces him?

#56

Post by histan » 20 Oct 2017, 19:12

Hi MarkN

von Funck was already in command of 5 le Div when it was selected to go to Afrika, which is why he was sent there in January. His report that more than one division was needed was not well received. That was the main reason why he was sent to replace (mdFb) Rommel and Streich selected replace him at 5 le Div - all effective from 14.02.1941.

Once the decision was made that more than one division was needed then command of German Troops in Libya became a corps level command.

von Funck was a newly promoted Generalmajor [RDA 01.01.1941 (9) in a PV dated 17.12.1941] and had only just taken over 5 leichten Div, his first division level command. You are right, he could have gone to North Africa as commander of this division but not as a corps level commander.

In the order appointing Rommel the spelling is "Libyen"
Funck   (84).jpg
Regards

John

MarkN
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Re: Rommel dies in 1941, who replaces him?

#57

Post by MarkN » 20 Oct 2017, 19:56

Thank you histan,

When the Sperrverband Libyen started and ended and 5.lei-Div started is all a bit of a muddle.

And you are quite correct, von Funck was indeed initially nominated (and written up as) Commander 5.le-Div.

Further evidence of this from my own files (3.Pz-Div KTB).
Image

Mind you, he never got to command it as such. What elements had arrived in Libya prior to his removal? 8-)

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Re: Rommel dies in 1941, who replaces him?

#58

Post by ljadw » 20 Oct 2017, 21:28

As commander of the DAK, Rommel was depending on the Italian commander in NA .

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Re: Rommel dies in 1941, who replaces him?

#59

Post by ljadw » 20 Oct 2017, 21:35

MarkN wrote:
ljadw wrote: In february(AFTER the Italians had stopped the Western Desert Force)
The Italians did not stop WDF.


So what? Min temperature in may in Tripoli : 12 Celsius. Today it is 24C on my balcony, in Europe, but it is definitely not summer.

1) YES : they did : Tripoli was captured only in 1943, not in january 1941. The reason was that the Italians stopped the British .

2) Europe is not North Africa : 27 C is not spring.

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Re: Rommel dies in 1941, who replaces him?

#60

Post by ljadw » 20 Oct 2017, 21:41

About the arrival of Pz-Regiment 8 in Lybia : following Ron Klages on Feldgrau,it arrived

on 24 april (convoy 22)

on 2 may (convoy 23 )

on 6 may (convoy 24 )

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