The Gibraltar of the East

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Gorque
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Re: The Gibraltar of the East

#61

Post by Gorque » 15 Dec 2017, 23:34

aghart wrote:It was said with a smile, my apologies if it came across in the wrong way, so the amended text,
Gorque, Ceylon & Sydney are too far away from the area to be defended, Even a theatre base needs to be close enough to be useful. It's like saying that in 1940 during the Battle of Britain, RAF Fighter command should have had all it's fighter Squadrons based in Scotland
Hi aghart:

Thanks for the explanation. All's better. :) I did take it the wrong way.

Getting back to the topic, having a theater base at Sydney or Columbo doesn't mean that one cannot have an operational base closer to the fray. They are not mutually exclusive. And in this case where the landward defenses were suspect, this might not be a bad strategy until the enemy was driven away.

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Re: The Gibraltar of the East

#62

Post by Gorque » 15 Dec 2017, 23:37

T. A. Gardner wrote:Sydney would have made far greater sense. The purpose of Singapore was to provide a place for ship repair as a base. Building it in Australia means having access to an industrial base that can make far more extensive repairs than Singapore could. Singapore could have been limited to a forward base to fuel and re-munition ships. Those with damage could have been given temporary repairs there and sent to Australia for full refit or repair.
I agree wholeheartedly with this post. You point regarding the industrial base is gives even more credence for locating a theater base there.


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Re: The Gibraltar of the East

#63

Post by aghart » 16 Dec 2017, 00:51

I think we will just have to agree to disagree, I still believe that you can't house an entire fleet at a forward operating base, by the time the main fleet arrived from Sydney or Ceylon the Japanese would have completed whatever mission it had been given without hindrance, a fleet that arrives too late might as well stay in harbour.

My feeling is still that both Ceylon and Sydney were so far away from where the threat was that they were actually "out of theatre" and as such would have had no effect on Japanese planning for war.

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Re: The Gibraltar of the East

#64

Post by T. A. Gardner » 16 Dec 2017, 01:06

aghart wrote:I think we will just have to agree to disagree, I still believe that you can't house an entire fleet at a forward operating base, by the time the main fleet arrived from Sydney or Ceylon the Japanese would have completed whatever mission it had been given without hindrance, a fleet that arrives too late might as well stay in harbour.

My feeling is still that both Ceylon and Sydney were so far away from where the threat was that they were actually "out of theatre" and as such would have had no effect on Japanese planning for war.
Why not? The USN did it in WW 2. That was something they had by design since before WW 1. A mobile fleet train to establish a base wherever they needed one.

In WW 2, Pearl Harbor or the West Coast of the US was where only the most heavily damaged ships went for repair. Anything less and they got fixed where the fleet train was, like Ulithi atoll.

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Re: The Gibraltar of the East

#65

Post by aghart » 16 Dec 2017, 08:31

T. A. Gardner wrote:
aghart wrote:I think we will just have to agree to disagree, I still believe that you can't house an entire fleet at a forward operating base, by the time the main fleet arrived from Sydney or Ceylon the Japanese would have completed whatever mission it had been given without hindrance, a fleet that arrives too late might as well stay in harbour.

My feeling is still that both Ceylon and Sydney were so far away from where the threat was that they were actually "out of theatre" and as such would have had no effect on Japanese planning for war.
Why not? The USN did it in WW 2. That was something they had by design since before WW 1. A mobile fleet train to establish a base wherever they needed one.

In WW 2, Pearl Harbor or the West Coast of the US was where only the most heavily damaged ships went for repair. Anything less and they got fixed where the fleet train was, like Ulithi atoll.
Your talking about the USN that had the vast Pacific to deal with. The RN used a string of bases to operate from, A Fleet train was not in British Plans, Any RN foray from Columbo or Sydney would arrive at Singapore short of fuel, not a problem "if" they somehow got there before the IJN, a very serious problem if the IJN was waiting for them when they arrived.

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Re: The Gibraltar of the East

#66

Post by Hoist40 » 16 Dec 2017, 13:49

While the US had the idea of a "Fleet Train" in WW1 they did not get one until at least 1943 and more into 1944

In 1941 and 1942 they were very short of just supply ships let alone repair ships in the Pacific

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Re: The Gibraltar of the East

#67

Post by T. A. Gardner » 16 Dec 2017, 20:22

aghart wrote:Your talking about the USN that had the vast Pacific to deal with. The RN used a string of bases to operate from, A Fleet train was not in British Plans, Any RN foray from Columbo or Sydney would arrive at Singapore short of fuel, not a problem "if" they somehow got there before the IJN, a very serious problem if the IJN was waiting for them when they arrived.
No, I am talking about a different point of view. The British opted for building bases around the world (the Falklands for example as a coaling station) rather than have a mobile fleet of support ships that could follow the fleet.
The US with the Great White Fleet world sailing, found they needed a means to operate far from home without permanent bases. That led to the establishment of a fleet train in 1905 (proposed in 1904 by Admiral A. C. Cunningham USN) that continued to develop into the one so successfully used in WW 2. This was to be a substitute for forward bases and ports like the British had.

The use of Singapore should have been for fueling an provisioning along with light repairs at most. With Sydney as the main base and repair facility to its rear. This way you could have a squadron at Singapore to both defend the base and control the straights that could be reinforced quickly from Sydney. That was how most other RN overseas squadrons operated.

Hoist40 wrote:While the US had the idea of a "Fleet Train" in WW1 they did not get one until at least 1943 and more into 1944
In 1941 and 1942 they were very short of just supply ships let alone repair ships in the Pacific
You'd be wrong. The first forward (advanced) base the US built was Guadalcanal / Florida island (Tulagi Harbor). It started immediately upon the invasion of that island group and expanded into a massive logistics operation by mid 1943.
The next postion to be set up was Funafuti atoll. Collection and postioning of the nessessary ships and barges for the first mobile base started in early 1942. The 5th Marine Defense battalion landed on Funafuti atoll October 1942, unopposed, and the USN moved in Service Squadron 4 to set up their first mobile fleet base. CB battalions built an airfield and the USAAF flew in B-24's to to begin bombing Tarawa and other Japanese held islands in the Gilberts. The Seabees also dredged entries into the lagoon and removed obstacles within it to create sheltered 100 ship anchorage.
Service Squadron 8, 13 fleet tankers backed by merchant tankers begain to operate forward to allow ships of the Pacific Fleet to fuel at will without returning to Pearl Harbor. The fleet tankers operated in remote parts of open ocean where they were unlikely to be spotted, escorted by a few destroyers.
By mid 1943 Funafuti was a fully operational forward base capable of supplying and repairing the fleet.

The next location forward was Majuro atoll (abandoned by the Japanese November 1942) in the Marshalls. The same thing was repeated with Service Squadron 10 there. The operation by mid 1944 moved to Ulithi atoll (unoccupied by the Japanese).

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Re: The Gibraltar of the East

#68

Post by Hoist40 » 16 Dec 2017, 21:31

I think you are mixing up "Fleet Train" which were ships operating with the Fleet and forward bases which were just less formal Singapores

Maybe Wiki is wrong but it says the first "Service Squadron" was created in November 1943


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_Squadron

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Re: The Gibraltar of the East

#69

Post by T. A. Gardner » 16 Dec 2017, 23:14

Hoist40 wrote:I think you are mixing up "Fleet Train" which were ships operating with the Fleet and forward bases which were just less formal Singapores

Maybe Wiki is wrong but it says the first "Service Squadron" was created in November 1943


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_Squadron
Fleet Train was the original term back in 1904 when the idea was first put forward. The official nomenclature during WW 2 was calling them Service Squadrons.

ServRon 4 was activated 1 November 1943, but collection and construction of the necessary vessels, where they didn't exist, started over a year earlier. For example, the dozen plus very large barges (360 to 400 feet long) were originally used on the Mississippi river and towed from New Orleans to Noumea New Caledonia in early 1943 for use there. The ABSD (Advance Base Sectional Dry dock) was towed in sections to Noumea before being towed to Funafuti.

Image
A section under tow with the side wall erected.

Image
Walls folded.

Tulagi harbor had some the same sort of services at it by late 1942 and was instrumental in keeping several cruisers and destroyers heavily damaged in battles of Guadalcanal a safe haven to repair at locally before heading to Pearl Harbor for permanent repairs.

The whole concept was the Navy could haul a base to wherever they needed it and set one up rather than build a new one from scratch each time, or have to maintain an expensive string of permanent overseas bases like Britain did.

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Re: The Gibraltar of the East

#70

Post by Terry Duncan » 24 Dec 2017, 02:17

aghart wrote:I think we will just have to agree to disagree, I still believe that you can't house an entire fleet at a forward operating base, by the time the main fleet arrived from Sydney or Ceylon the Japanese would have completed whatever mission it had been given without hindrance, a fleet that arrives too late might as well stay in harbour.

My feeling is still that both Ceylon and Sydney were so far away from where the threat was that they were actually "out of theatre" and as such would have had no effect on Japanese planning for war.
I am a bit late catching this, but the main problem with Singapore is that it cannot be defended if Britain is involved in a European war at the same time the Japanese move. Disagreement is ok, I am just wondering how you propose Singapore is defended and supplied in the scenario outlined above, the exact threat Jellicoe ruled out Singapore due to it. The scenario Singapore faced historically is also worth looking at, as even if they had driven Yamashita back and avoided having to surrrender, as soon as the Japanese regrouped and sent sufficient men it was doomed to be lost due to supply problems the moment air control was lost and sea supply was interdicted.

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Re: The Gibraltar of the East

#71

Post by Kingfish » 24 Dec 2017, 20:17

T. A. Gardner wrote:You'd be wrong. The first forward (advanced) base the US built was Guadalcanal / Florida island (Tulagi Harbor). It started immediately upon the invasion of that island group and expanded into a massive logistics operation by mid 1943.
What are you considering a forward base?
Prior to Op Watchtower the US had to first develop the bases at Noumea, Port Vila and Luganville, the latter of critical importance to the transfer of aircraft to Henderson field.
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Re: The Gibraltar of the East

#72

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 25 Dec 2017, 01:04

Also prior to op Watchtower the USN had selected Wellington as its primary S Pacific base. Would that be a forward base a or a primary base in the rear?

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Re: The Gibraltar of the East

#73

Post by Terry Duncan » 25 Dec 2017, 01:11

From memory, Wellington was selected by the US as a sustainable base of operations the Japanese could never get near, so I presume it would count as a primary base.

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Re: The Gibraltar of the East

#74

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 25 Dec 2017, 01:17

T. A. Gardner wrote:
Hoist40 wrote:I think you are mixing up "Fleet Train" which were ships operating with the Fleet and forward bases which were just less formal Singapores

Maybe Wiki is wrong but it says the first "Service Squadron" was created in November 1943


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_Squadron
Fleet Train was the original term back in 1904 when the idea was first put forward. The official nomenclature during WW 2 was calling them Service Squadrons.

...
& in between 1904 & 1943, or 1942 when the ships were ordered, were a long series of proposals, temporary arraignments, studies, conversions, one off designs, limited series, ect.. ect... that were used & tested in the fleet exercises run from after 1907 to 1941. There is a reason the Navy set up Marine base defense battalions & expeditionary brigades between 1907 & 1927. Ground and air combat units organized specifically for seizing and defending the sheltered anchorages to park the service units of the fleet train were part and parcel of the USN plans for a Pacific War. The fundamental concept had been tested, evolved, retested, and counter tested for over thirty years. There was a lot of cutting edge technology introduced 1940-43 for the service fleet, but the core concept had been in development over several career spans.
Last edited by Carl Schwamberger on 25 Dec 2017, 01:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Gibraltar of the East

#75

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 25 Dec 2017, 01:20

Terry Duncan wrote:From memory, Wellington was selected by the US as a sustainable base of operations the Japanese could never get near, so I presume it would count as a primary base.
Since the Japanese did attack Oahu that would be a forward base? I'm not sure if Long Beach or San Diego counted as primaries or forward bases since technically the Japanese did attack the west coast at a couple of places.

Getting back to Oahu would it revert to a primary base in 1943 since the Japanese could no longer attack it?

Getting confused. I'll shut up now :wink:

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