No "WonderWeapons" programs

[MarkN]

Very difficult to draw the line. What is a "wonderweapon"?

Any fancy unconventional weapon that was conceived or began production from 1943 onwards. For example ME-262, ME-163, V2 rockets and Tiger II.

1943 is when Hitler and Co became delusionally optimistic about wonderweapons.

Wunderwaffe???

Jet engines were a natural development of aircraft propulsion when the piston engine reached its power/speed limit. Dabbling with rocket power was a bit fanciful, but hardly groundbreaking since the concept had already been around for over 500 years.

Building bigger, more powerfully armed and better protected tanks was a natural progression.

[MarkN]

Now if one's going to bellyache about 118 Typ XXIs, why not about the whole of the UBoot-waffe:

- unparalleled menace to citrus importation to Albion. Through scurvy to Endsieg!

If I remember correctly. The Germans were also constructing a massive fortified U-Boat base immune to allied bombing. Another colossal waste of resources.

So, your point has nothing to do with wunderwaffe in the sense of technology, and everything to do with decision-making. :roll:

[BDV]

So, your point has nothing to do with wunderwaffe in the sense of technology, and everything to do with decision-making.

Any "program"-related discussion will decidedly touch on the decision-making side of the story.

[David1819]

Can we not agree that the mass production of long-range ballistic rockets and rocket planes achieved nothing militarily for the Reich? The V2s terrorised civilians and the ME-163 done nothing but impress the allied occupiers that set eyes on them.

Then we have the ME-262 and the Tiger II. Some may disagree that these machines are 'Wunderwaffe' But nevertheless the were produced with that concept in mind. The Tiger I was already the Apex tank on the battlefield why the need for Tiger II? The FW190 was able to shoot down enemy bombers. It was on par if not superior to allied fighters. Why built ME-262?

The what if question is. What if the Germans and Hitler did not embrace the 'Wunderwaffe' concept?

[T. A. Gardner]

Can we not agree that the mass production of long-range ballistic rockets and rocket planes achieved nothing militarily for the Reich? The V2s terrorised civilians and the ME-163 done nothing but impress the allied occupiers that set eyes on them.

Then we have the ME-262 and the Tiger II. Some may disagree that these machines are 'Wunderwaffe' But nevertheless the were produced with that concept in mind. The Tiger I was already the Apex tank on the battlefield why the need for Tiger II? The FW190 was able to shoot down enemy bombers. It was on par if not superior to allied fighters. Why built ME-262?

The what if question is. What if the Germans and Hitler did not embrace the 'Wunderwaffe' concept?

With tanks the silliness comes with the Tiger Maus or E 100. These were insane vehicles that should never have been entertained. The Me 163 was another and that it was developed into the Me 263 and later variants of the Me 163 were the same. The rocket fighter was a bust when the Russians tried it, when the British tried it, etc. It simply wasn't going to work.

Pushing for weapons that weren't even near workably developed is typical of a nation in a situtation where they are losing a war. Germany is hardly alone in trying to find something that would reverse their road to defeat.

[MarkN]

Pushing for weapons that weren't even near workably developed is typical of a nation in a situtation where they are losing a war. Germany is hardly alone in trying to find something that would reverse their road to defeat.

Indeed. They were losing the war with what they had. Having more of the same wouldn't have changed that.

Can we not agree that the mass production of long-range ballistic rockets and rocket planes achieved nothing militarily for the Reich? The V2s terrorised civilians and the ME-163 done nothing but impress the allied occupiers that set eyes on them.

Questions and decisions in the areas of economic, industrial and resource allocation were based around 'winning' the war NOT whether the choices achieved something militarily. Having a few extra Tigers or FW190 change nothing.

Then we have the ME-262 and the Tiger II. Some may disagree that these machines are 'Wunderwaffe' But nevertheless the were produced with that concept in mind. The Tiger I was already the Apex tank on the battlefield why the need for Tiger II? The FW190 was able to shoot down enemy bombers. It was on par if not superior to allied fighters. Why built ME-262?

The Germans steamrollered west and east Europe in 1939-1941 with Pz.I, II, III, IV, 35 and 38. Perhaps they should have stopped tank development then and built more Pz.I rather than wasting resources, money and effort on the Panther and Tiger ...

In 1945 the British commenced operations with the Centurian tank and the Meteor jet fighter. How would the Tiger and FW190 have fared then? The Americans were also introducing jet aircraft and far better tanks. Were they "delusionally optimistic about wonderweapons".

1943 is when Hitler and Co became delusionally optimistic about wonderweapons.

The only "delusionally optimistic" are those like you who, with the benefit of 75 years of hindsight, STILL think the Germans could have won the war by tweaking a few decisions here and there, who think the Wehrmacht could have won the war on the battlefield if only "Hitler and Co" had not interfered.

Germany was going to lose the war in the summer/autumn of 1945 at the latest when the US/UK started dropping their wunderwaffe on Reich cities. Can you explain how having a few more Tiger 1 and FW190 instead of rockets and jet aircraft would have won the war for the Germans before that date???

[BDV]

The what if question is. What if the Germans and Hitler did not embrace the 'Wunderwaffe' concept?

But Germany did win in the beginning with the wunderwaffe konzeptum. That's how Nazi Germany rolled, with technological solutions to the manpower and other strategic limitations it was facing.

Before the Wehrmacht showed proof of principle in September 1939, and May 1940, both armor and airplane were auxiliary tools of warfare. It was Germany that achieved (temporary) success by fully embracing these specialized tools and using them en masse, wunderwaffe-style.

If UBootWaffe's blockade against Great Britain ends up being effective, and Britain sues for peace, it would be admired as wunderwaffe through history. I laugh at UBoot Waffe only because it failed so miserably.

So in 1943-44 Germans were just trying to recapture the magic of 1939-1940. But the world had learned to adapt, and had turned the tools that Germans had created against them.

[Michael Kenny]

The early campaigns were won by horse-drawn infantry divisions and tankettes . In 1943 the tide had turned and defeat was looming. That is when the 'wunder-waffen mentality went into overdrive. The rise of the SS Divisions, introduction of the Panther and vast over-hype of the power of an single Tiger combined to create a myth that lingers to this day. It was the only hope they had and they had to believe it would deliver. The alternative was to seek terms. Wunder-Waffen were the opium of the masses.

[BDV]

The early campaigns were won by horse-drawn infantry divisions and tankettes.

I disagree.

Polish Army had plenty of those. Cavalry, too. It had brave men, it had officers who were not syphilitic imbeciles. It got rolled in 2 weeks.

[David1819]

The only "delusionally optimistic" are those like you who, with the benefit of 75 years of hindsight, STILL think the Germans could have won the war by tweaking a few decisions here and there, who think the Wehrmacht could have won the war on the battlefield if only "Hitler and Co" had not interfered.

I've never said that. The purpose of these topics is to speculate on alternative history not the speculate on what forum members believe.

[MarkN]

The purpose of these topics is to speculate on alternative history not the speculate on what forum members believe.

And yet you started this thread specifically with the hope/intent that others will speculate on what you believe in: namely that Nazi Germany should not have spent time and effort on developing and building things that you believe were "wunderwaffe" and you believe were a waste of effort. :roll:

[The Ibis]

Can we not agree that the mass production of long-range ballistic rockets and rocket planes achieved nothing militarily for the Reich? The V2s terrorised civilians and the ME-163 done nothing but impress the allied occupiers that set eyes on them.

Nothing? No we cannot agree. The German missile program caused a massive diversion of Allied air power. The Anglo-Americans dropped more tonnage on Crossbow targets than they did supporting their field armies during the Normandy campaign and twice as much on Crossbow targets than on bombing Germany at the same time. Something like 3% of ALL tonnage dropped by the Anglo-Americans in ALL theatres during the entire war was on rocket related targets. Hardly inconsequential.

[David1819]

The purpose of these topics is to speculate on alternative history not the speculate on what forum members believe.

And yet you started this thread specifically with the hope/intent that others will speculate on what you believe in: namely that Nazi Germany should not have spent time and effort on developing and building things that you believe were "wunderwaffe" and you believe were a waste of effort. :roll:

I started this thread with the sole purpose to hear other peoples opinions about how an alternate history would play out.

Its is not a matter of believing that 5000 V2 rockets and 270 Me-163s were a waste of effort. The former achieved nothing military and the later shot down less than 20 aircraft. The ME-163 has a record of less than one allied plane shot down for every ten 163s produced. Undeniably a waste of effort.

For the record I do not believe Germany could have won WWII after 1943. The only way I can imagine a German victory in those circumstances is if they managed to produce an atomic bomb.

[Darthmalgus]

Very difficult to draw the line. What is a "wonderweapon"?

Any fancy unconventional weapon that was conceived or began production from 1943 onwards. For example ME-262, ME-163, V2 rockets and Tiger II.

1943 is when Hitler and Co became delusionally optimistic about wonderweapons.

Maybe the Me 163, but jets were something that the major combatants were all developing. If you look at the timelines, there wasn't much difference between German development and Allied in jets, so I really wouldn't call them a "wonder weapon." They were more like a logical progression of aircraft development based on a new engine technology that was occurring on a wide basis.

Likewise, high speed submarines. Both Germany and Japan were working on these, and the Japanese got further than the Germans in actually deploying the technology.

Now, things that were in the wonder weapon category... Ballistic missiles and rockets? Undoubtedly. A SAM, AAM, or ATGM? Definitely. Rocket fighters? Same thing. A 288 ton tank? Yea, I can see that. A 36" / 80 cm railway gun? Yep. The V3 gun? That's another.
All those were held out as weapons that could change the course of events on some major scale or would tip the balance of power in a battle in favor of Germany on its own. All ended up being tremendous wastes of money and effort on weapons that never amounted to much and cost far more than they delivered.

Hey,

Would the V3 gun of been any good then? Also ballistic missiles wouldn't help the Germans 1943 onwards or would they actually?

[T. A. Gardner]

Hey,

Would the V3 gun of been any good then? Also ballistic missiles wouldn't help the Germans 1943 onwards or would they actually?

The V3 was a complete waste of time and effort. It was a fixed gun position that was designed to fire on a single target. It was highly vulnerable to countermeasures like the Tallboy bombs that destroyed the facility while under construction.

Even completed, it would have been slow firing, given reload times, and each projectile would do little damage on its own. People could have been evacuated from the target area, and since it was aimed at London, it wasn't going to really take out much in the way of war production.

The V2 was no better. Think of it this way: The V2 cost roughly the same to build and launch as an Me 110. But, you used the V2 one time to deliver roughly the same payload an Me 110E or F could to a range no more than about 300 miles from the launch point. That's considerably less distance than an Me 110 could penetrate. And, the Me 110 could be reused if it wasn't shot down.
Without a nuclear weapon, the V2 was never close to cost effective.