UK declares war against the Soviets

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MarkN
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Re: UK declares war against the Soviets

#16

Post by MarkN » 24 Dec 2017, 16:19

ljadw wrote:
gaxsax wrote: Both Nazi German and the Soviet Union were aggressive in European domination.
If so ,why did the SU not invade Western Europe after the war ? :P
Perhaps the more relevant question would be: why didn't France and Britain declare war on Poland in the autumn of 1938?

If gaxsax has a think about that, then maybe he or she will be better placed to understand the abject nonsense of what he/she is proposing here....

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Re: UK declares war against the Soviets

#17

Post by gaxsax » 25 Dec 2017, 19:02

The alternative history could have been the following:
1. Britain join alliance with Nazi German against the Soviet Union.
2. Britain support the Japanese Empire in its adventure in China.

British foreign policy was flawed and short sighted. It lost its empire and became a bankrupt country after
the war and communism prevailed in Eastern Europe and the Far East.

Two emerging superpowers: the USA and USSR which overshadowed Britain after the war.

This is history gentlemen.
Cheers


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henryk
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Re: UK declares war against the Soviets

#18

Post by henryk » 26 Dec 2017, 21:14

The United Kingdom and France did investigate action against the Soviet Union. In particular there were proposals to use the Polish Army and the Polish Navy. Another proposed action was in Iran.
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic ... it=finland
Proposed Use of The Polish Army in the Winter War

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Re: UK declares war against the Soviets

#19

Post by maltesefalcon » 26 Dec 2017, 22:22

An interesting option, but it is not germaine to the original topic;which was a declaration of war from France and/or UK as a result of the invasion of Poland.

ljadw
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Re: UK declares war against the Soviets

#20

Post by ljadw » 27 Dec 2017, 13:29

gaxsax wrote:The alternative history could have been the following:
1. Britain join alliance with Nazi German against the Soviet Union.
2. Britain support the Japanese Empire in its adventure in China.

British foreign policy was flawed and short sighted. It lost its empire and became a bankrupt country after
the war and communism prevailed in Eastern Europe and the Far East.

Two emerging superpowers: the USA and USSR which overshadowed Britain after the war.

This is history gentlemen.
This is phantasy

1) and 2 ) were out of the question, besides Britain had not the resources to help Germany against the SU and Japan against China .

British foreign policy was flawed nor short sighted : it would also lose its empire if it helped Germany/Japan and Eastern Europe would be occupied by Germany . And USA and Germany would overshadow Britain .

The only chance for Britain was peace, no war, but the decision belonged to Germany .

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Re: UK declares war against the Soviets

#21

Post by maltesefalcon » 27 Dec 2017, 22:20

Add to that the real possibility that UK alignment with Germany and in particular Japan, would alienate them with the USA, for no offsetting benefit to themselves. The UK depended heavily on ship borne trade with Canada, India, African colonies, Australia and New Zealand. The USA could seriously threaten these trade routes and even invade Canada to block goods coming out of the St Lawrence.

On top of that, alignment with Germany would also eventually lead to a break with France, Belgium and the Netherlands, each of whom had forces and colonies in Africa, the Caribbean and the Far East that would pose a potential threat to British interests.

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T. A. Gardner
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Re: UK declares war against the Soviets

#22

Post by T. A. Gardner » 29 Dec 2017, 05:31

Doing this means Britain goes against centuries of political maneuvering they were used to. Britain's political and military strategy from their early colonial era on has / had always been to build coalitions and allies for land warfare while limiting their own participation in that aspect of a war and contributing a large navy.
For Britain to declare war on the Soviet Union means they lose a potential ally having a massive army for land warfare. Playing the Soviets off against the Germans in a massive land war while limiting their own participation to secondary theaters and operations at sea (and in the air) was Britain following their traditional strategy towards warfare. This is why Britain was so opposed to reinvading France until late in the war. It went against their limiting their involvement in a large land war. The one time they did this, WW 1, led to a nearly disastrous level of casualties.
The US on the other hand, wanted to get on the continent early (Round Up / Bolero) as a land power capable of producing and fielding a large army (along with a large navy, the only true dual power in modern history so far).

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Re: UK declares war against the Soviets

#23

Post by nota » 03 Feb 2018, 17:34

the only way that happens is if Russia invades Poland first before any German action

and stalin was not that stupid or wreck-less

hitler was that stupid and wreck-less and impatient

did the M/R pact set timing of the war ?
never understood why the germans acted alone first
there by drawing the brits and french into declaring war against germany
even acting at the same timing may have had a different result
but russian invasion before german action would have been better for a western powers alliance to ''save poland''

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Re: UK declares war against the Soviets

#24

Post by maltesefalcon » 03 Feb 2018, 18:09

The terms of the agreement were directed at Germany in particular, in which a German attack on Poland would be considered a casus belli.
The terms of an attack by other nations including SU would involve initial consulation, not an automatic declaration of war.
It is fair to say that the Allies had not anticipated the Nazi-Soviet Pact, which only preceded the actual invasion by a week.

David1819
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Re: UK declares war against the Soviets

#25

Post by David1819 » 15 Feb 2018, 00:14

gaxsax wrote:What if Britain and France had declared war against both Germany and the Soviet Union over Poland?
Not a lot.

Hitler's ambitions to expand the Reich into Russia will remain. Once Britain's cities are battered by the Luftwaffe and the Wehrmacht is near the gates of Moscow, both the UK and USSR will realise that they will have to stop being at war and co operate in order to survive the fight with their common enemy.
gaxsax wrote: Any explanations of the Allies inconsistencies of foreign policy concerning Germany and the Soviets?
The Soviet Union was never seen as a potential threat. It was a far less developed nation with it military wildly seen as a joke. Only after Barbarossa finally failed when the Russians got their act together was the Soviet military a force to be reckoned with.

Their are two ways to stop the USSR taking over central and western Europe.

A - Support Hitler in his conquest of the USSR.

or

B - Invade Hitler from the west while his Reich is a convieniant buffer inflicting large casuialites on the USSR in the east. And take as much of Europe as possible before the USSR gets it.


What do you think is the better option?

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Re: UK declares war against the Soviets

#26

Post by Frankfurter » 15 Feb 2018, 00:30

ljadw wrote:
gaxsax wrote: Both Nazi German and the Soviet Union were aggressive in European domination.

If so ,why did the SU not invade Western Europe after the war ? :P
Easy:
1. The US had THE bomb.
2. it would have been too much for the Red Army and a largely exhausted Soviet Union. They´d have had to confront the US Army, the USAF, the British Army and the RAF, plus lesser Forces like the French Army. No way a Red Army which for a large part only survivived 1941/1942 due to the support of the US and British would have suceeded.

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Re: UK declares war against the Soviets

#27

Post by ljadw » 21 Feb 2018, 10:17

The SU also had the bomb and from 1957 on could start a nuclear attack on the US : in 1957 the US nuclear umbrella had disappeared .

And, the Red Army did not survive in 1941/1942.It had the initiative .

Last point :pré 1957 the Western conventional forces in Europe were that weak that there was NO possibility to stop the Soviets without the use of nuclear arms . After 1957 they were stronger, but still weaker than the Red Army .It would take 1965 before the 12 German divisions were operational ,and than the BOAR and the French had disappeared ,leaving only the 6 US and 12 German divisions to fight the Red Army .

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