Falklands Island War

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Sid Guttridge
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Re: Falklands Island War

#31

Post by Sid Guttridge » 23 Jun 2018, 13:53

Hi Robert Rojas,

I don't think it is the position that the Falklands ".....are as much a part of Great Britain as is the Isle of Wight". Great Britain is a geographical entity in the north-east Atlantic. The Falklands are a dependency of Great Britain in the south-west Atlantic.

Theoretically, the Falklands are following the route of Canada, Australia and New Zealand to independence. However, unlike them, it cannot be combined with other neighbouring colonies into a larger political unit big enough for true independence, so it seems likely that the Falklands will remain a dependency ad infinitum.

One thing seems clear in law - the Falklands are British, not Argentine. I draw this conclusion because the Argentine position is not to take the matter to legal arbitration, but to try and get it treated as a decolonization issue through the U.N. Britain has a legalistic approach, whereas Argentina has a political approach.

If one wants to infer permanence from the creation of a military base, it is worth mentioning that both naval and Royal Marine installations long predate the Mount Pleasant airfield extension in 1985. The Argentine Air Force was using the airfield during 1982, so 1985 doesn't even create an aerial precedent. I think the first British military presence was in the 1760s, which predates the creation of Argentina by nearly half a century.

I don't see a St. Martin-type solution as viable because there is currently no Argentine presence, or even a significant Argentine-leaning minority, to justify it. As you say, "Falklanders see themselves as British and nothing but British." As long as the UK is wedded to the principle of self determination for the natives (as in Gibraltar) this is not likely to change.

Nothing is set in stone. For example, one wonders what the untutored and impulsive current tenant of the White House would have done if in office during the Falklands War? How far does "America First" extend in his mind? Across the entire hemisphere? I suspect that Argentina's moment will only come when Western dominance in military power and values is surpassed, and it is certainly in relative decline now.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: RE: The Falklands Island War - (Gibralter Of The South Atlantic).

#32

Post by Sheldrake » 23 Jun 2018, 14:31

Robert Rojas wrote:As far as my recollection serves, the repetitive assertion of the forum's disparate Anglophilic constituency is that the Falkland Islands are as much a part of Great Britain as is the Isle of Wight and to suggest otherwise is tantamount to religious heresy. One could almost come to that very conclusion after Her Majesty's Government went through the trouble and considerable expense to construct what would become the Mount Pleasant Royal Air Force Base in year 1985 and the creation of such an installation could easily infer territorial permanence. Beyond that, is the not so inconsequential matter of political self-determination for the fine burghers of the Falkland Islands. It was (and is) my "understanding" that they want nothing to do with Argentinian Governance since there is never any certainty what sort of regime will hold sway in Buenos Aires. In short, the Falklanders see themselves as British and nothing but British.
The Argentine arguments for ownership are very weak. The assumption that Argentina inherited the territorial claims of Imperial Spain 200 years ago is like re-opening the Schleiswig-Holstein question, the ownership of the South Tyrol, or China's claim to Vietnam. It is political nationalistic mischief making. There are no refugees from the Malvinas. The argument about geographic proximity is as rational as a British claim to Ireland ,or French claim to Britain.


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Loïc
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Re: Saint Martin

#33

Post by Loïc » 23 Jun 2018, 15:54

Saint Martin is not at all a French Dutch condominiun, if the Malouines/Malvinas should receive the same treatment this would mean two separate territories

Saint Martin it is like the judgement of Solomon : cut the baby in two, each part belonging to two separate states, administrations

the New Hebrides were a French British condominium until 1980, two states sharing authority and sovereignity over a same territory, nothing to see with Saint Martin case divided in two countries

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Robert Rojas
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RE: The Falklands Island War - (The More The Merrier).

#34

Post by Robert Rojas » 23 Jun 2018, 19:01

Greetings to both citizen Loic and the community as a whole. Howdy Loic! Well monsieur, in respect to your posting of Saturday - June 23, 2018 - 5:54am, old yours truly would like to convey his appreciation for your individual perspective on the topic of national duality. It has been my long held "understanding" that the unique geographic entity of Saint Martin and Sint Maarten was a political condominium with the joint administration of governmental duties and services across the greater island itself. Now, if this not at all the case, then I do stand properly corrected on this matter. Undoubtedly, both Sid Guttridge and many others will also appreciate your timely intervention on this matter. Finally, it is refreshing to observe that disparate nationalities, other than the usual Anglo-American suspects, also have a topical interest with the Falklands Island War. I certainly look forward to your continuing participation within the course of this topic - especially with a Francophilic outlook on this South Atlantic conflict in year 1982. Well, that's my latest two cents, pence or centimes worth on this continuing Anglo-Argentinian saga - for now anyway. In any case, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day over in your often unappreciated nation that made the United States of America possible. Au Revoir!

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :|
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

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Robert Rojas
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RE: Falklands Island War - (The Gift That Keeps On Giving).

#35

Post by Robert Rojas » 23 Jun 2018, 21:28

Greetings to both citizen Hoover and the community as a whole. Howdy Hoover! Well sir, in respect to your posting of Saturday - June 23, 2018 - 1:49am, old yours truly would like to convey my appreciation for your clarification on matters that were historically peripheral to the subsequent Falklands Island War of year 1982. And yes, the often estranged relationship between Argentina and the United States of America does have its origins in the Nineteenth Century and continues right through the present day. And yes, the Argentinian Military Establishment does and has benefited from the material support from the United States of America. With that said, the United States of America ostensibly adopted the role "belligerent neutral" with Great Britain's imperial enterprise in the South Atlantic Ocean in year 1982. This is very much the same role the United States of America adopted with Great Britain during the course of the Second World War in the North Atlantic Ocean in years 1940 and 1941. Apart from the actual shooting, the United States of America was in it for the long haul. Needless to say, the Argentinian junta was not exactly happy with the Reagan Administration. For that matter, the preponderance of the nations of the South American Continent were not exactly happy with the Reagan Administration either! The Monroe Doctrine and the subsequent Act of Havana notwithstanding, I am quite certain that it did not come to any ones great surprise that the Gringos were siding with other de facto Gringos on this territorial dispute in the South Atlantic Ocean. After all, blood is always thicker than water. Now, on the subject of Tierra del Fuego, old Uncle Bob has reason to believe that you were probably alluding to the WAR THAT NEVER WAS between Argentina and Chile during year 1978. That territorial dispute involved the islands of Picton, Lennox and Nueva which sit at the entrance of the Beagle Channel and the South Atlantic Ocean. The Argentinian junta was very close to launching a military operation to wrest control of these Chilean appendages, but the last minute negotiations instituted through the auspices of the Vatican eventually settled this matter. The projected invasion date was set for December 22, 1978 under the guise of OPERATION SOBERONIA. Are we reading from the same sheet of music on this one? Well, that's my latest two cents or pence worth on this continuing Anglo-Argentinian saga - for now anyway. In any case, I would like to bid a copacetic day over in the Fatherland. Auf Wiedersehen!

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :|
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

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Hoover
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Re: Falklands Island War

#36

Post by Hoover » 23 Jun 2018, 23:09

Dear UNcle Bob,

1978, yes, I didn´t remeber the year of the crisis with Chile, thank you. But in my opinion in 1982 this crisis was quite solved and far away to be a hot war, so it should be obviously for the US and France for what the massive arming will be used...the Falklands.

But that is not the topic of this thread.

Bye
Frank

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Robert Rojas
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RE: Falklands Island War - (The Gift That Keeps On Giving).

#37

Post by Robert Rojas » 23 Jun 2018, 23:56

Greetings to both citizen aghart and the community as a whole. Howdy aghart! Well sir, in light of your posting of Friday - June 22, 2018 - 9:44pm, just to sate the curiosity of old yours truly, were your remarks aimed at either citizen Hoover or myself? A clarification would be most helpful. And yes, the International Arms Trade has and will certainly produce a multitude of unintended consequences. However, the thrust of this thread is orientated to the passion play that was the Falklands Island War and not to alter of the Transnational Military Industrial Complex. That is certainly an important discussion that is worthy of separate thread all of its own. Well, that's my latest two cents or pence worth on this continuing Anglo-Argentinian saga - for now anyway. In any case, I would like to bid you a copacetic day over in merry old England. GOD SAVE THE QUEEN - not to mention everyone else.

Best Regards From The Upstart Colonies!
Uncle Bob :idea: :|
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

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Robert Rojas
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RE: Falklands Island War - (Gibralter Of The South Atlantic).

#38

Post by Robert Rojas » 24 Jun 2018, 01:26

Greetings to both citizen Sid Guttridge and the community as a whole. Howdy Sid! Well sir, in respect to your posting of Saturday - June 23, 2018 - 3:53am, old yours truly would like to convey my gratitude for your ever insightful point OR points-of-view on the thorny matters of territorial possession and governance over the Falkland Islands. And yes, it is certainly difficult to refute Great Britain's initial ownership of the Falklands Archipelago when Great Britain's flag proudly flew over that unpopulated wind swept rock before the nation of Argentina even came into existence. As the old and battered adage goes, POSSESSION IS NINE-TENTHS OF THE LAW. Incidentally, thanks to your perspective, old Uncle Bob will certainly reconsider his erroneous belief that a posting of a permanent troop garrison OR military related installation of any said place would reinforce and solidify a claim of national possession. After all, is it not wise to be flexible? However, I rather suspect that this entry will receive a smile or two by anyone who might be intently perusing this thread from the Peoples Republic of China. Thank God that Great Britain has no territorial possessions in the South China Sea! It's just some speculative food for thought. Crumpets anyone? Well, that's my latest two cents or pence worth on this continuing Anglo-Argentinian saga - for now anyway. In any case, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day no matter where you just might happen to find yourself on Terra Firma.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :|
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

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Robert Rojas
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RE: Falklands Island War - (The Gift That Keeps On Giving).

#39

Post by Robert Rojas » 24 Jun 2018, 08:09

Greetings to both citizen Sheldrake and the community as a whole. Howdy Sheldrake! Well sir, in reference to your posting of Saturday - June 23, 2018 - 4:31pm, I must concede that old yours truly did get a good chuckle out of your comment gravitating on POLITICAL NATIONALISTIC MISCHIEF MAKING. It is certainly amazing what makes the world go around! Well, I must concur with your sentiments. Not only is Argentina's argument for ownership of the Falkland Islands very weak, it is down right anemic. Unfortunately, as annoying as the geographic proximity game might be, it certainly can be a convenient tool to justify any manner of irrendentist behaviors. Ironically, the Argentinians had far better territorial claims in the Chilean regions of Tierra del Fuego than they ever had in the Falklands. I can only conclude that the Argentinian junta saw the Falkland Islands as an easy mark to sieze without the likelihood of a military reaction from ever distant Great Britain or the political intervention of the Vatican to prevent the conflict in the place. Otherwise, I rather suspect that Augusto Pinochet's Prussians would have given Leopoldo Galtieri's over glorified gendarme a very difficult time in an alpine war in the Andes. Well, that's my latest two cents or pence worth on this continuing Anglo-Argentinian saga - for now anyway. In any case, I would like to bid you a copacetic day over in merry old England. GOD SAVE THE QUEEN - not to mention everyone else.

Best Regards From The Upstart Colonies!
Uncle Bob :idea: :|
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

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