Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Discussions on alternate history, including events up to 20 years before today. Hosted by Terry Duncan.
BobTheBarbarian
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Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by BobTheBarbarian » 07 Nov 2019 18:30

ljadw wrote:
07 Nov 2019 10:24
2 Honor has no place in international politics, honor is a childish notion .
Sounds like something Stalin himself would say!

OpanaPointer
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Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by OpanaPointer » 07 Nov 2019 19:19

"Countries don't have friends, they have interests." Not sure I agree with that.
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ljadw
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Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by ljadw » 07 Nov 2019 19:23

BobTheBarbarian wrote:
07 Nov 2019 18:30
ljadw wrote:
07 Nov 2019 10:24
2 Honor has no place in international politics, honor is a childish notion .
Sounds like something Stalin himself would say!
Intelligent politicians do not fight for honor,but for the interests of their country .
At the end of the First Gulf War, US abandoned the Kurds,because it was in the interest of the US .

ljadw
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Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by ljadw » 07 Nov 2019 19:25

OpanaPointer wrote:
07 Nov 2019 19:19
"Countries don't have friends, they have interests." Not sure I agree with that.
Palmerstone was right .

OpanaPointer
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Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by OpanaPointer » 07 Nov 2019 19:29

ljadw wrote:
07 Nov 2019 19:23
BobTheBarbarian wrote:
07 Nov 2019 18:30
ljadw wrote:
07 Nov 2019 10:24
2 Honor has no place in international politics, honor is a childish notion .
Sounds like something Stalin himself would say!
Intelligent politicians do not fight for honor,but for the interests of their country .
At the end of the First Gulf War, US abandoned the Kurds,because it was in the interest of the US .
We had our choice of supporting the French in Indochina or the locals. We needed a strong France in Europe.
Come visit our sites:
hyperwarHyperwar
World War II Resources

Bellum se ipsum alet, mostly Doritos.

ljadw
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Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by ljadw » 07 Nov 2019 19:30

Britain declared war on Germany when the Germans attacked Belgium/France, not when the Germans attacked Russia, not when Italy attacked the Ottoman Empire, not when the Balkan states attacked the Ottoman Empire, not when the Soviets attacked Finland, Poland, the Baltics.
This proves that British foreign policy was dictated ( in 1914 ) by Real Politik, not by absurd notions of honor .

OpanaPointer
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Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by OpanaPointer » 07 Nov 2019 19:31

ljadw wrote:
07 Nov 2019 19:25
OpanaPointer wrote:
07 Nov 2019 19:19
"Countries don't have friends, they have interests." Not sure I agree with that.
Palmerstone was right .
It's like a business decision. If you contract for materials at a higher price than the low bidder just because the winner is a friend you're not doing your business any favors. Still don't have to like it. :wink:
Come visit our sites:
hyperwarHyperwar
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Bellum se ipsum alet, mostly Doritos.

ljadw
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Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by ljadw » 07 Nov 2019 19:34

OpanaPointer wrote:
07 Nov 2019 19:29
ljadw wrote:
07 Nov 2019 19:23
BobTheBarbarian wrote:
07 Nov 2019 18:30
ljadw wrote:
07 Nov 2019 10:24
2 Honor has no place in international politics, honor is a childish notion .
Sounds like something Stalin himself would say!
Intelligent politicians do not fight for honor,but for the interests of their country .
At the end of the First Gulf War, US abandoned the Kurds,because it was in the interest of the US .
We had our choice of supporting the French in Indochina or the locals. We needed a strong France in Europe.
US supported the French in Indochina because there was a cold war, and because they were afraid that Indochina would become communist.
In 1945 OTOH,FDR planned to eject the French from Indochina .

OpanaPointer
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Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by OpanaPointer » 07 Nov 2019 19:42

ljadw wrote:
07 Nov 2019 19:34
OpanaPointer wrote:
07 Nov 2019 19:29
ljadw wrote:
07 Nov 2019 19:23
BobTheBarbarian wrote:
07 Nov 2019 18:30
ljadw wrote:
07 Nov 2019 10:24
2 Honor has no place in international politics, honor is a childish notion .
Sounds like something Stalin himself would say!
Intelligent politicians do not fight for honor,but for the interests of their country .
At the end of the First Gulf War, US abandoned the Kurds,because it was in the interest of the US .
We had our choice of supporting the French in Indochina or the locals. We needed a strong France in Europe.
US supported the French in Indochina because there was a cold war, and because they were afraid that Indochina would become communist.
In 1945 OTOH,FDR planned to eject the French from Indochina .
I think he would have liked to do that, but I doubt he could have actually done it. We weren't going to fight France.
Come visit our sites:
hyperwarHyperwar
World War II Resources

Bellum se ipsum alet, mostly Doritos.

BobTheBarbarian
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Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by BobTheBarbarian » 08 Nov 2019 06:10

OpanaPointer wrote:
07 Nov 2019 19:31
ljadw wrote:
07 Nov 2019 19:25
OpanaPointer wrote:
07 Nov 2019 19:19
"Countries don't have friends, they have interests." Not sure I agree with that.
Palmerstone was right .
It's like a business decision. If you contract for materials at a higher price than the low bidder just because the winner is a friend you're not doing your business any favors. Still don't have to like it. :wink:
"For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul?"

TheMarcksPlan
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Location: USA

Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 08 Nov 2019 06:27

BobTheBarbarian wrote:
08 Nov 2019 06:10
OpanaPointer wrote:
07 Nov 2019 19:31
ljadw wrote:
07 Nov 2019 19:25
OpanaPointer wrote:
07 Nov 2019 19:19
"Countries don't have friends, they have interests." Not sure I agree with that.
Palmerstone was right .
It's like a business decision. If you contract for materials at a higher price than the low bidder just because the winner is a friend you're not doing your business any favors. Still don't have to like it. :wink:
"For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul?"
Anyone who believes honor didn't matter to the Japanese during WW2 is living in an ahistorical neoliberal dream.

That said, the Hitlerian strategy I sketch is not based primarily on honor. It's based on Japan's interest in having an ally in its fight against the US and the credible threat Hitler could have made to deny alliance.

ljadw
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Posts: 10142
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by ljadw » 08 Nov 2019 12:30

BobTheBarbarian wrote:
08 Nov 2019 06:10
OpanaPointer wrote:
07 Nov 2019 19:31
ljadw wrote:
07 Nov 2019 19:25
OpanaPointer wrote:
07 Nov 2019 19:19
"Countries don't have friends, they have interests." Not sure I agree with that.
Palmerstone was right .
It's like a business decision. If you contract for materials at a higher price than the low bidder just because the winner is a friend you're not doing your business any favors. Still don't have to like it. :wink:
"For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul?"
Faced between the choice to gain the whole world and forfeit one's soul, most people will chose the first option .

ljadw
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Posts: 10142
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by ljadw » 08 Nov 2019 12:32

TheMarcksPlan wrote:
08 Nov 2019 06:27
BobTheBarbarian wrote:
08 Nov 2019 06:10
OpanaPointer wrote:
07 Nov 2019 19:31
ljadw wrote:
07 Nov 2019 19:25
OpanaPointer wrote:
07 Nov 2019 19:19
"Countries don't have friends, they have interests." Not sure I agree with that.
Palmerstone was right .
It's like a business decision. If you contract for materials at a higher price than the low bidder just because the winner is a friend you're not doing your business any favors. Still don't have to like it. :wink:
"For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul?"
Anyone who believes honor didn't matter to the Japanese during WW2 is living in an ahistorical neoliberal dream.

Fallacy : Japanese soldiers did not fight for honor, but because they were called up .
And Japan did not declare war for honor but to defend its interests .

OpanaPointer
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Posts: 4142
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Location: United States of America

Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by OpanaPointer » 08 Nov 2019 12:50

BobTheBarbarian wrote:
08 Nov 2019 06:10
OpanaPointer wrote:
07 Nov 2019 19:31
ljadw wrote:
07 Nov 2019 19:25
OpanaPointer wrote:
07 Nov 2019 19:19
"Countries don't have friends, they have interests." Not sure I agree with that.
Palmerstone was right .
It's like a business decision. If you contract for materials at a higher price than the low bidder just because the winner is a friend you're not doing your business any favors. Still don't have to like it. :wink:
"For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul?"
Yachts, mansions, hotties, flunkies, etc.
Come visit our sites:
hyperwarHyperwar
World War II Resources

Bellum se ipsum alet, mostly Doritos.

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Takao
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Location: Reading, Pa

Re: Japan delays Pearl Harbor, attacks USSR during the high point of Barbarossa

Post by Takao » 08 Nov 2019 14:28

ljadw wrote:
08 Nov 2019 12:32
TheMarcksPlan wrote:
08 Nov 2019 06:27
BobTheBarbarian wrote:
08 Nov 2019 06:10
OpanaPointer wrote:
07 Nov 2019 19:31
ljadw wrote:
07 Nov 2019 19:25


Palmerstone was right .
It's like a business decision. If you contract for materials at a higher price than the low bidder just because the winner is a friend you're not doing your business any favors. Still don't have to like it. :wink:
"For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul?"
Anyone who believes honor didn't matter to the Japanese during WW2 is living in an ahistorical neoliberal dream.

Fallacy : Japanese soldiers did not fight for honor, but because they were called up .
And Japan did not declare war for honor but to defend its interests .
Fallacy.

Japanese soldiers, in the main, continued to fight past the point of surrender because of honor.

It was in Japan's best interests not to go to war with a power they could not defeat...They went to war anyway.

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