What do you think the ideal borders for the Russian Empire would have been?

[Futurist]

What do you think the ideal borders for the Russian Empire would have been?

As for me, here is what I think:

1. First of all, Russia should be allowed to keep all of the territories which it currently controls in real life. This includes Russia within its 1991 borders as well as Crimea. This is the ethnic Russian core of Russia and thus the Russian Empire should certainly keep control of this territory. Personally, I don't care much for Chechnya, but I need to hold it in order to secure a land connection to oil-rich Baku.

2. Russia should keep Azerbaijan (including Baku, of course) due to its massive oil reserves. As for Armenia and Georgia, I'll let them decide whether or not they want to remain under Russian rule. If they do want to remain under Russian rule, though, then it would make sense for Russia to keep them and also to expand into the Armenian vilayets--as well as the Trabzon Vilayet (which had a lot of ethnic Greeks)--of the Ottoman Empire:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_vilayets

3. Russia should avoid attempting to expand into either Iran or Afghanistan. It's just not worth it--there are too many Muslims there for little gain.

4. Russia should withdraw from what is now Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and southern Kyrgyzstan since there are a lot of Muslims there and little gain for Russia. However, Russia should keep Turkmenistan (due to its massive amount of natural gas reserves), Kazakhstan, and northern Kyrgyzstan--the last two for living space.

5. At an opportune moment, Russia should expand into Mongolia and eastern Xinjiang. This would be a golden opportunity for Russia to acquire additional living space at relatively little cost. Also, the Mongols can probably be assimilated pretty well into Russia while most of Xinjiang's Uyghurs live in western Xinjiang--which Russia is not going to want to annex.

6. Expansion into Manchuria and Korea should be out of the question since there are simply too many Chinese and Korean people there for Russia to assimilate. However, Russia should reacquire southern Sakhalin for its living space once the opportunity arises. Indeed, Russia can even let the Japanese and Korean residents of south Sakhalin remain where they are; after all, there is plenty of living space there to go around.

7. Under no circumstances should Russia try to reacquire Alaska (not that it would even be feasible, that is). After all, the U.S. is destined for greatness and Russia should certainly not stand in its way.

8. Russia should let go of Poland and western Ukraine. Those territories are full of nationalists and would probably be too much of a problem for Russia to handle in the long(er)-run.

9. Russia should keep Bessarabia if that is what its inhabitants want. However, if Bessarabia's inhabitants want to unite with Romania, Russia should certainly let them do this.

10. Russia should keep eastern Ukraine, southern Ukraine, and Belarus. Nationalism there has not become widespread yet and thus all of these territories can probably be kept by Russia.

11. Russia should keep the Baltic states for their living space. As for Finland, it would depend on how much ethnic Russians would want to move there. If few ethnic Russians will want to move to Finland, Russia should let Finland go. Else, Russia should keep Finland.

12. In the event of a future war with Germany, Russia should acquire northern East Prussia and try to encourage a lot of ethnic Russians to move there. Meanwhile, Poland (from which Russia should have withdrawn by now) should acquire the southern, Polish-majority part of East Prussia (known as Masuria).

Anyway, any thoughts on my list here?

Indeed, what exactly would you do if you had a carte blanche to redraw the Russian Empire's borders in, say, 1913?

[South]

Good morning Futurist,

Ref: "any thoughts on..list?";
Re: "what exactly would you do..borders in 1913?";

The first thing I would do - - - and it's NOT the most important - - - It's just what I would do - - - would be to review China's catalog of "Unequal Treaties". (In 1913, GERMANY is the MOST important.)

Look at the area northwest of today's Xinjiang Province. China calls it the "Great Northwest Area" and was ceded to Russia by the Tacheng Treaty of 1864. The 2 year old Chinese Republic also had nationalists like you mentioned in other peripheral places.

Doesn't Afghanistan have something to do with tripwire status in re India ? The Pamirs were secretly divided by the British and Russia in 1896. This eastern section next to Afghanistan has the Waghan Corridor leading to "China". In 1913, the area was not that clearly delineated but there were still Chinese nationalists not wanting "barbarians" ... ie "foreigners" there.

Northeast of the Amur River, the basic northeast portion of China, was ceded to Russia via the Augin Treaty of 1858. (Sakhalin allowed for a Japanese share of the island.) The area grid southeast of the Amur River was ceded to Russia via the Peking Treaty of 1860. Note the location of the new Great Power, Japan.

I'm not mentioning the places that are now "current events".....although conceding much of above is "current events" but not in the lamb-stream news.

Where in eastern Xinjiang is there "living space" ?

Ref 6 in particular; Actually, there are NOT too many Korean people in the Koreas (Not sure how you're defining "Manchuria".) The Koreas have a lower birth rate than Japan and Japan has a problem because of their low birthrate.

Recommend this thread mention Dr Anton Chekov's "A Journey to the End of the Russian Empire".

I'm an Asiaologist so I practiced my typing above re 1913 Russia's borders.

MORE important than my above rambling in re Russia and 1913 is GERMANY. How do you say "Seidenstrasse" auf Deutsch ?


~ Bob
eastern Virginia, USA

[Robert Rojas]

Greetings to both brother South and the community as a whole. Howdy Bob! Well sir, in light of your posting of Tuesday - May 31, 2018 - 10:50pm, old yours truly was pleasantly surprised to learn that matters ASIATIC is your worldly shtick. I have OFTEN wondered if you were some sort of foreign policy wonk and now I know! Thank you for confirming for my long held suspicions. With that said, where do you find the time, much less the patience, to deal with the legion of rank amateurs found out here in the Axis History Forum? Needless to say, I am also one of those rank amateurs that clearly has far too much time on his hands. Now, in deference to brother Futurist's mania for Great Russian irredentism, old Uncle Bob must wonder aloud if his ethnocentric outreach also entails the Great Russian diaspora. After all, the contemporary State of Israel might as well be an oblast of the Russian Federation. On a more visceral level, I could care less if the latter day cradle of Pan-Slavism disappeared tomorrow. And for whatever the reason, Hedrick Smith's now dated work simply entitled as THE RUSSIANS keeps buzzing through the recesses of my mind. GO FIGURE! Well, that's my initial two cents or kopecks worth on this wanting topic of "hypothetical" interest - for now anyway. In any case, I would like to bid you a copacetic day over in the Old Dominion that is the Commonwealth of Virginia.


Best Regards,
Uncle Bob

[South]

Good afternoon Uncle Bob,

Appreciated reading your above message.

Matters Asiatic allow for the best of all worlds: the nice stuff of Asia and the nice stuff the colonialists and others left there. Harbin beer of Harbin, China is Russian peva. Tsingtao brew is German bier. Thailand adds alcohol to their products. Singapore's Tiger brand gets on the list.

My time comes with retirement. My patience; ... actually Marcus assembled this place with a relatively large group of real historians (Adjectives are now required when writing in the land of the fruited plain.) True, there are rank amateurs here but our AHF ratio is sturdy and fortified and beats the heck out of the Washington, D.C. think tanks and conditioned-response tanks. Illustrative:

A 19th century Queen of England, a power in her own right, arranged to meet with her temporal leader. The Queen said: "Mr Prime Minister, there are not many good theologians within my realm. Gladstone replied: "Madam, there are not many good anything".

No, you're not an amateur. Your recent mention of the reflagged Kuwaiti tankers (American jurisprudence at work when the goo is needed. It was, still is, expensive to live in Manhattan, Marin County, Carmel, California, Honolulu, Hawaii, ... ... ... ... ...) The petro-dol.....er, the oil was desperately needed.

Yes, Israel is loaded with ethnic Russians. Was told their immigration law was "adjusted" to accommodate situation.

Pan-Slavism depends if those folks assemble nation-states of ~ 100 million. Otherwise, those places are just too small. The new world requires economies of scale and the small places....involves Asia also.....can't run a government (public sector) without the support of a producing private sector. Otherwise, the aforesaid areas are for the Cartographers Work Relief Act. (Key word is adjective "producing".)

The Russian diaspora, like many others, if not most, saw things like the "ov" of names removed so as to blend in with the locals. Will the Maritime Oblasts become a diaspora ? I'm guessing they might need to arrange for
mah jong lessons. Sure beats Russian Roulette with their famous Smith and Wesson Model 3 revolver.

I am now in the mood for a Bering cigar and a San Miguel - but can't have either.

~ Bob
eastern Virginia, USA