No Operation Spring Awakening Scenario 2

[Cult Icon]

What if this operation was canceled (along with OP Southwind) and the 6th Panzer Army was pulled into OKW Reserve and rested and refitted. Then, it is allocated to Army Group Vistula in April 1945 in time for the battle of Berlin.

[Kingfish]

It would be like throwing a sandbag into the breach of a collapsed dam.

[Cult Icon]

It would be like throwing a sandbag into the breach of a collapsed dam.

not exactly...it was more substantial than anything else defending Berlin.

[Robert Rojas]

Greetings to both citizen Cult Icon and the community as a whole. Howdy C.I.! Well sir OR madam, in respect to your introductory posting of Tuesday - July 24, 2018 - 6:57pm, old yours truly must concur with the sentiments as expressed by brother Kingfish within his sage posting of Wednesday - July 25, 2018 - 2:50pm. Other than prolonging the agony of the war in Europe, what rational purpose would the Sixth S.S. Panzer Army really serve during the overall course of the Battle of Berlin? I, for one, am of the school of thought that Sepp Dietrich's Sixth S.S. Panzer Army would have fared little better in its attempt to destroy the Red Army formations assaulting the greater metropolitan area of Berlin than the combined efforts of Walther Wenck's Twelfth Army and Theodor Busse's Ninth Army during the actual battle itself. Logistically, I must also wonder if Sepp Dietrich's Sixth S.S. Panzer Army will have the wherewithal to support itself during the sustained tempo of combat operations after the Red Army mounts its offensive across the Oder-Neisse river barrier on April 16, 1945. Given the herculean task OR tasks before it, one must really wonder if Sepp Dietrich's Sixth S.S. Panzer Army will have access to reliable sources of ammunition, FUEL, food and medical supplies as it fulfills its mission in the passion play that is Adolf Hitler's Gotterdammerung. Finally, it my layman's assertion that the "BEST" all around course of action for Sepp Dietrich's Sixth S.S. Panzer Army is to engage in an incremental withdrawal to the Anglo-American front while attempting to shepherd as many civilians away from the avenging Red Army as humanly possible. At this point in the "GAME", Sepp Dietrich will no longer be answerable to Adolf Hitler. Sepp Dietrich will now be answerable to GOD almighty. Well, that's my initial two cents or pfennigs worth on this angst ridden hypothetical topic of interest - for now anyway. In any case, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day no matter where you just might happen to find yourself on Terra Firma.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob

[Kingfish]

It would be like throwing a sandbag into the breach of a collapsed dam.

not exactly...it was more substantial than anything else defending Berlin.

OK, two sandbags

My point is even if you included the entire OOB for Op Spring Awakening it would have mattered little to the overall tactical and strategic picture.

By the time the Russians were knocking on Berlin's door the front lines of all three theaters had collapsed and the allies were about to join hands at Torgua.

[Cult Icon]

It is too flippant of an answer.

The 6 SS Panzer Army was the strongest Army in the German Army in 1945.. It had numerous panzer divisions (~550 tanks and AG operational and in short/medium term repair in early March 1945). If withdrawn into reserve instead of deployed on an offensive fiasco it would have built up its forces further by April 1945.

Roja's point is correct in that it would have logistical trouble in Berlin. I wonder if it would have taken the role of Steiner's improvised "11th SS Panzer Army" in its attempt to relieve 9th Army or would it have been integrated into Berlin's defenses (the first two rings being 150 KM and 90 KM long). This would make WW2 weeks longer.

[Kingfish]

It is too flippant of an answer.

Depends on the context of your scenario.

The 6 SS Panzer Army was the strongest Army in the German Army in 1945.. It had numerous panzer divisions (~550 tanks and AG operational and in short/medium term repair in early March 1945). If withdrawn into reserve instead of deployed on an offensive fiasco it would have built up its forces further by April 1945.

Maybe, maybe not. The aforementioned logistical issues aside there is also the rapidly deteriorating tactical and strategic situation to consider. By the end of March the western allies were across the Rhine and the Rhur encircled. It may well be that circumstances force the Germans to throw the AG against the western allies yet again, and in whatever shape it is in.

[Robert Rojas]

Greetings to both citizen Cult Icon and the community as a whole. Howdy C.I.! Well sir, in respect to your posting of Thursday - July 25, 2018 - 2:14am, like yourself, old yours truly rather suspects that Sepp Dietrich's Sixth S.S. Panzer Army would have been the designated substitute for Felix Steiner's improvised Eleventh S.S. Panzer Army. Unlike Felix Steiner's phantom Eleventh S.S. Panzer Army, I rather suspect (rightly OR wrongly) that Sepp Dietrich's Sixth S.S. Panzer Army "MIGHT" have had a slim chance to extricate Theodor Busse's trapped Ninth Army from the Halbe Pocket southeast of Berlin. However, even if successful, the cost in irreplaceable manpower and equipment would have made this venture little more than a pyrrhic victory. After the action at the Halbe Pocket, I rather suspect that the strength of Sepp Dietrich's Sixth S.S. Panzer Army will have been degraded to such a point where it could no longer be effectively integrated into the defenses of greater metropolitan Berlin. Sepp Dietrich's crack panzer troops would fight on as common infantrymen until the formal capitulation. Well, that's my latest two cents or pfennigs worth on this angst ridden hypothetical topic of interest - for now anyway. In any case, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day no matter where you just might happen to find yourself on Terra Firma.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob

[Phaing]

IMHO, it would have allowed the Americans to reach Berlin first... if they had been allowed to by Truman.

The 6th Panzer was the army least in need of refit. Hitler might have sent them off to Prague, he had a weird way of sending the best units away from the most important places for flimsy reasons by this point.
Or, maybe not, maybe Pomerania could have been saved... for a while. What they would do after the Ruhr had been surrounded and fuel from the south had been cut off is another story.

[Robert Rojas]

Greetings to both brother Phaing and the community as a whole. Howdy Phaing! Well sir, in respect to your posting of Friday - July 27, 2018 - 9:37pm, old yours truly must once again echo the sentiments of brother Kingfish as articulated within his sage posting of Thursday - July 26, 2018 - 2:05pm. By the time the Battle of Berlin commenced on April 16, 1945, the resistance of the Wehrmacht in Western Germany and Northern Italy was in rapid collapse and in the greater scheme of events, it would have made no difference whatsoever where Sepp Dietrich's Sixth S.S. Panzer Army was deployed. As long as Adolf Hitler remained alive, the pointless bloodletting would continue and If the military commander of the government quarter of Berlin is (or was) to be believed, it was stated desire of Adolf Hitler to remain alive through May 05, 1945. When Wilhelm Mohnke inquired about the significance of that date, Adolf Hitler replied that it was the anniversary of the death of Napoleon Bonaparte. Yes brother Phaing, the all knowing Bohemian Corporal HAD A WEIRD WAY about a great many things! Finally, it is just as well that the Anglo-American coalition made no attempt to push on to metropolitan Berlin since it was previously agreed upon by the Allies that Eastern Germany would fall under Soviet occupation and governance. Well, that's my latest two cents or pfennigs worth on this angst ridden topic of interest - for now anyway. In any case, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day up in your neck of the woods that is the State of Jefferson.


Best Regards,
Uncle Bob

[Carl Schwamberger]

What if this operation was canceled (along with OP Southwind) and the 6th Panzer Army was pulled into OKW Reserve and rested and refitted. Then, it is allocated to Army Group Vistula in April 1945 in time for the battle of Berlin.

Could this group have made the movement to Prussia? IIRC the 5th Pz Army was ordered east in February to reinforce that region. As I understand the ongoing collapse of the transportation system meant the components were stranded in bits and pieces across Germany as the attempted to move in February and March. The army had effectively ceased to exist as it was overrun piecemeal during March and April. If this account of the 5th Pz Army is accurate then it suggests the same might happen to the 6th ?

[Robert Rojas]

Greetings to both brother Carl Schwamberger and the community as a whole. Howdy Carl! Well sir, in respect to your posting of Monday - July 30, 2018 - 8:05am. old yours truly is more than a wee bit mystified over the status and disposition of Josef Harpe's Fifth Panzer Army. Now, I am NOT saying that you misinformed here, but as far as I know, Josef Harpe's Fifth Panzer Army was never issued any marching orders for either Pomerania or Silesia during the final months of the European conflict. Is it possible that you might be confusing Josef Harpe's Fifth Panzer Army with an entirely different organization? If my recollection serves, and that's not saying much, Josef Harpe's Fifth Panzer Army was a part of the field grey multitudes that was subsequently encircled in the Ruhr Pocket on April 17, 1945. Beyond that, it is difficult to ascertain the relative status and disposition of Sepp Dietrich's Sixth S.S. Panzer Army since citizen Cult Icon does NOT specify where the marshalling area for the O.K.W. Reserve might OR might not be. I must "assume" that surviving units from Sepp Dietrich's Sixth S.S. Panzer Army were immediately redeployed to this unspecified O.K.W. Reserve area after the failure of the Wacht Am Rhein operation in January of year 1945. The additional month of January "MIGHT" have provided Sepp Dietrich's Sixth Panzer Army the breathing space to pull all of its disparate parts together - MAYBE! Well, that's my latest two cents worth on this angst ridden topic into the hypothetical - for now anyway. In any case, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day from sea to shining sea.


Best Regards,
Uncle Bob