What would Latvia and Estonia look like after 100 years of German rule?

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What would Latvia and Estonia look like after 100 years of German rule?

Post by Futurist » 11 Aug 2018 21:19

Had Germany won WWI (by keeping the US neutral and making concessions in the West so that it could keep its territorial gains in the East), and had Germany been able to hold on to Latvia and Estonia for the next 100 years, what would these territories have looked like right now?

Would they have been a backwater just like East Prussia was? Or would they have become much more prosperous than East Prussia?

Also, had Germany tried to actively recruit massive numbers of Jews from Mitteleuropa to settle in Latvia and Estonia between 1918 and 2018 (in the event of a German WWI victory), would a lot of Jews have taken Germany up on this offer? For the record, this would have included getting a nice piece of land in Latvia or Estonia if you would have moved there.

Any thoughts on all of this?

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Re: What would Latvia and Estonia look like after 100 years of German rule?

Post by wm » 12 Aug 2018 00:46

Latvia and Estonia were too small for grandiose projects.
It would be a dwarf League of East European States.

And only 4 percent of Polish Jews were farmers, most of them poor as church mice.

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Re: What would Latvia and Estonia look like after 100 years of German rule?

Post by Futurist » 12 Aug 2018 01:28

wm wrote:
12 Aug 2018 00:46
Latvia and Estonia were too small for grandiose projects.
It would be a dwarf League of East European States.
That sounds interesting. :)

Indeed, it's much easier for Germany to manage a couple million Balts than for Germany to manage tens of millions of Poles and tens of millions of Ukrainians. This is why I was thinking of having Germany directly annex Estonia, Latvia, and probably Lithuania as well while letting Austria-Hungary (if it will survive WWI intact in the event of a CP victory in WWI) annex Poland and creating a genuinely independent Ukrainian state.
And only 4 percent of Polish Jews were farmers, most of them poor as church mice.
What about moving them (the Jews who weren't farmers) to cities in the Baltic states instead?

Also, would German farmers from Russia have been willing to settle in the Baltic states in this scenario? Or would they have preferred to settle somewhere with a nicer climate--even if they would still have to leave Russia due to the rise of anti-German sentiments there after a Russian defeat in WWI?

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Re: What would Latvia and Estonia look like after 100 years of German rule?

Post by Futurist » 12 Aug 2018 01:32

Also, were most Polish and Ukrainian Jews merchants and tradesmen?

I know that many cities in Poland, Ukraine, and Belarus had either a Jewish majority or a Jewish plurality and thus I wonder if some of these Jews would have been willing to move to cities in the Baltic states if they would have been encouraged to do this.

Really, Germany had no business being in the Lebensraum game unless it was willing to make use of the Jews in Mitteleuropa for this purpose. As we probably both agree, there probably wouldn't have been enough Germans for this purpose even if a lot of Germans from Russia would have moved to the Baltic states.

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Re: What would Latvia and Estonia look like after 100 years of German rule?

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 12 Aug 2018 20:25

Futurist wrote:
12 Aug 2018 01:32

Really, Germany had no business being in the Lebensraum game unless it was willing to make use of the Jews in Mitteleuropa for this purpose. As we probably both agree, there probably wouldn't have been enough Germans for this purpose even if a lot of Germans from Russia would have moved to the Baltic states.
Gradual assimilation of the Balts, and Jews somewhat offsets a shortage of 'Germans'. Establish German middle schools in the territories as a better alternative to local schools. Encourage them to study trades and at the universities in Germany, and establish German university branches in the new territories. Encourage Balt guest workers to migrate to Germany. The Balts may retain a separate ethnic identity, but economically and in other practical ways they would be deeply entangled with Germany. If the Germans can overcome antisemtisem they would assimilate another group, of great energy and potential.

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Re: What would Latvia and Estonia look like after 100 years of German rule?

Post by Futurist » 12 Aug 2018 22:16

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
12 Aug 2018 20:25
Futurist wrote:
12 Aug 2018 01:32

Really, Germany had no business being in the Lebensraum game unless it was willing to make use of the Jews in Mitteleuropa for this purpose. As we probably both agree, there probably wouldn't have been enough Germans for this purpose even if a lot of Germans from Russia would have moved to the Baltic states.
Gradual assimilation of the Balts, and Jews somewhat offsets a shortage of 'Germans'. Establish German middle schools in the territories as a better alternative to local schools. Encourage them to study trades and at the universities in Germany, and establish German university branches in the new territories. Encourage Balt guest workers to migrate to Germany. The Balts may retain a separate ethnic identity, but economically and in other practical ways they would be deeply entangled with Germany. If the Germans can overcome antisemtisem they would assimilate another group, of great energy and potential.
The German Empire (and Prussia before it) appears to have lacked the ability to Germanize groups en masse, though. I mean, the Germans were able to ensure that most Masurians and some Silesians adopted a German political identity, but these groups still didn't ethnically identify as Germans--and both of these groups were under German/Prussian/Austrian rule for centuries! Thus, I think that the best that can be done with the Balts is for them to adopt a German political identity but not an ethnically German identity--though even for this, you'd have to make a conscious effort to appease and assimilate the Balts since there appears to have been significant resentment of the ethnically German Baltic Barons among the Balts.

As for the Jews, they were less than 1% of the total population in Estonia and something like 5% of the total population in Latvia in the early 20th century. Thus, assimilating the Jews wouldn't provide much of a boost to the German presence in Latvia and Estonia unless a lot more Jews moved there and successfully assimilated. wm talks about some of the challenges that this would face, though if it can be done (especially by getting Jews from Poland, Lithuania, Ukraine, and Belarus to move to cities in Latvia and Estonia en masse), then this would be absolutely wonderful. I was thinking of having Germany make it really easy for people to move to Latvia and Estonia from the rest of Mitteleuropa but also to make it pretty hard for people from Mitteleuropa to move to Germany proper. That way--and especially if Germany follows this up with significant investment in Latvia and Estonia--a lot of migrants from Mitteleuropa could settle in Latvia and Estonia. Of course, these migrants would be not only Germans and Jews, but also Poles, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, and Belarusians--unless Germany discriminated by ethnicity and only let Germans and Jews into Latvia and Estonia.

Establishing German middle schools in Latvia and Estonia as a better alternative to local schools is a great idea--as in encouraging Balts to study at various German universities and establishing German university branches in Latvia and Estonia. As for the Balt guest workers, that would be a great idea not only because it would allow Balts to interact with and possibly marry Germans, but also because it would reduce the Baltic population of Latvia and Estonia by having a part of their population move to Germany (and this would be especially nice if these guest workers had a path to citizenship in Germany).

As for German anti-Semitism, it never made much sense to me given the huge potential of the Jews to be Germanized. Indeed, one would think that Germans would have been praising Jews instead of hating on them. In regards to this, though, the question would be just how many Jews would have been willing to move to Latvia and Estonia in this scenario.

Also, would large-scale Polish, Lithuanian, Ukrainian, and Belarusian immigration into Latvia and Estonia in this scenario have been a good idea? Or should Germany avoid this at all costs?

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RE: As Theodor Herzl Rolls Over In His Grave.

Post by Robert Rojas » 12 Aug 2018 23:34

Greetings to both brother Futurist and the community as a whole. Howdy Futurist (or Alvin Toffler if you so prefer)! Well sir, in deference to your point OR points-of-view as articulated in your introductory posting of Saturday - August 11, 2018 - 12:19pm, old yours truly has been observing the evolution of this thread with mounting disbelief. Since time immemorial, no matter WHERE the descendants of Abraham have settled, the pogroms have inevitably followed. Theodor Herzl was all too cognizant of this vicious cycle and hence the Zionist Movement was born. Theodor Herzl even broached this very issue with Kaiser Wilhelm II long before the outbreak of the First World War. Now, assuming that Imperial Germany is victorious in the First World War, would that not be an auspicious opportunity for all of European Jewry to GET OUT OF DODGE and head for Palestine? Latvia and Estonia are little more than fanciful pipedreams. Well, those are my thoughts on all of this both now and forever. In any case, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day over in your corner of the our FABLED PROMISED LAND that was once the Golden State of California.


Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :roll: :|
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

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Re: What would Latvia and Estonia look like after 100 years of German rule?

Post by wm » 13 Aug 2018 00:49

But the Turks controlled Palestine, not the British and not the Germans. And they wouldn't allow any opportunity to materialize.

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Re: What would Latvia and Estonia look like after 100 years of German rule?

Post by Futurist » 13 Aug 2018 01:51

wm wrote:
13 Aug 2018 00:49
But the Turks controlled Palestine, not the British and not the Germans. And they wouldn't allow any opportunity to materialize.
The Brits captured Palestine in 1917, no?

Of course, a lot would depend on whether the British would be willing to give Palestine back to the Ottomans in exchange for Central Powers concessions elsewhere. What these concessions would be and whether the Central Powers would agree to them, well, I'm not sure.

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Re: What would Latvia and Estonia look like after 100 years of German rule?

Post by Futurist » 04 Sep 2018 03:03

Hey wm,

I have a question for you--While I strongly doubt that the Germans would want this, how many Poles, Ukrainians, and Belarusians do you think would have been willing to move to Latvia and Estonia had Germany invested heavily in these territories and had Germany allowed completely or almost completely free migration from Poland, Ukraine, and Belarus to Latvia and Estonia?

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Re: What would Latvia and Estonia look like after 100 years of German rule?

Post by wm » 18 Sep 2018 19:11

1,200,000 of them lived and worked in Germany at the end of the nineteen century, millions emigrated to the US.
All that because of their poverty. The poverty was so bad they would move even to hell.

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Re: What would Latvia and Estonia look like after 100 years of German rule?

Post by Futurist » 19 Sep 2018 23:27

wm wrote:
18 Sep 2018 19:11
1,200,000 of them lived and worked in Germany at the end of the nineteen century, millions emigrated to the US.
All that because of their poverty. The poverty was so bad they would move even to hell.
Very interesting!

It seems like this would be a good way to significantly increase Latvia's and Estonia's population in this scenario. Of course, if Germany itself opens up its doors to large numbers of immigrants from these territories, then Germany itself could also benefit. Sure, there could be more competition for jobs, but these immigrants could also create their own businesses and thus create new jobs in Germany.

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Re: RE: As Theodor Herzl Rolls Over In His Grave.

Post by Gorque » 20 Sep 2018 03:08

Robert Rojas wrote:
12 Aug 2018 23:34
Greetings to both brother Futurist and the community as a whole. Howdy Futurist (or Alvin Toffler if you so prefer)!

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :roll: :|

Alvin Toffler died 27-6-2016

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Re: RE: As Theodor Herzl Rolls Over In His Grave.

Post by Futurist » 20 Sep 2018 03:23

Gorque wrote:
20 Sep 2018 03:08
Robert Rojas wrote:
12 Aug 2018 23:34
Greetings to both brother Futurist and the community as a whole. Howdy Futurist (or Alvin Toffler if you so prefer)!

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :roll: :|
Alvin Toffler died 27-6-2016
Yeah, I'm his ghost! ;) Boooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! ;)

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RE: As Theodor Herzl Rolls Over In His Grave.

Post by Robert Rojas » 20 Sep 2018 06:55

Greetings to both citizen Gorque and the community as a whole. Howdy Joachim! Well sir, in respect to your posting of Wednesday - September 19, 2018 - 6:08pm, old yours truly has been wondering when someone was going to note the fitting honorarium that I have bestowed upon brother Futurist. Apparently, your keen powers of observation are not failing you! Beyond that, I have often wondered what influences that the Dean of Futurism might be impacting brother Futurists disparate contributions to the neighborhood-at-large. On the other hand, maybe there are no influences at all! Well, that's my latest two cents or pfennigs worth on this topic of projected Teutonic governance in the Hanseatic League - for now anyway. In any case, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day over in your corner of that reality that is Termina.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :) :P :wink: 8-) :thumbsup:
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

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