If France doesn't fall in 1940 and Hitler is kaput, how do the Schwarze Kapelle continue the war?

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Futurist
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If France doesn't fall in 1940 and Hitler is kaput, how do the Schwarze Kapelle continue the war?

#1

Post by Futurist » 12 Aug 2018, 02:42

If the German invasion of France would have failed in 1940 (as a result of France not sending its Seventh Army to the Low Countries and as a result of France defending the Ardennes more), and if the Schwarze Kapelle would have subsequently overthrown Hitler and the Nazis and failed to make peace with the Anglo-French afterwards (due to their desired peace terms being too different), how would the Schwarze Kapelle continue the war against the Anglo-French?

Would the SK adopt a purely defensive strategy similar to the Hindenburg Line in World War I in the hopes of bleeding the Anglo-French dry and thus getting the Anglo-French to agree to better peace terms?

Also, how would the SK deal with the risk of starvation in Germany as a result of the British blockade? Would they subject Czechs, Poles, and Jews to starvation so that there would be enough food to feed the entire German population (so that the German population won't rebel against them)?

In addition to this, I would like to bring up a radical idea that I've previously thought about before--having the SK withdraw to Germany's 1914 borders in the east and let the Soviet Union occupy the rest of Poland. I mean, such a move would obviously be very risky since the Soviet Union would now have a long border (as opposed to a short border--which it would get by occupying and annexing the Baltic countries) with Germany and since 10-15% of the German population are Communist sympathizers. However, it's worth noting that Poland, the Baltic countries, Romania, Turkey, Iran, Afghanistan, and China all survived either for a couple of decades or indefinitely in spite of having a common border with the Soviet Union. Thus, why can't the more powerful Germany do the same thing?

The logic behind a German withdrawal to the 1914 borders in the East would be to make it impossible for Britain and France to recreate an independent non-Communist Poland (due to most of Poland's population ending up under Soviet rule). This would piss off Britain and France beyond belief, but it might be better from Germany's perspective than not doing this, continuing the war to the very end, and then having millions of ethnic Germans get expelled from Eastern Europe. That's the problem for the SK--if it can't make peace with Britain and France (due to too much disagreement), Germany is going to be screwed in the long(er)-run--which is why I am proposing a "Hail Mary" approach of letting the Soviet Union occupy most of Poland while allowing Germany to keep the parts of Poland--specifically those within Germany's 1914 borders--that German nationalists actually care about.

Anyway, any thoughts on everything that I wrote here?

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Re: If France doesn't fall in 1940 and Hitler is kaput, how do the Schwarze Kapelle continue the war?

#2

Post by Futurist » 12 Aug 2018, 02:43

In the grand scheme of things, it might be a good negotiating strategy for the SK to threaten to throw most of Poland to the Soviet wolves if Britain and France don't give them the peace terms that they want. In such a scenario, Britain and France wouldn't really be able to do anything about it considering that they lack a common border with Poland.


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Re: If France doesn't fall in 1940 and Hitler is kaput, how do the Schwarze Kapelle continue the war?

#3

Post by Kingfish » 12 Aug 2018, 15:57

Futurist wrote:
12 Aug 2018, 02:43
In the grand scheme of things, it might be a good negotiating strategy for the SK to threaten to throw most of Poland to the Soviet wolves if Britain and France don't give them the peace terms that they want.
But Poland is already lost so what would it matter to the British and French if the occupier is flying the German or Russian flag? The only offer they would consider would be the complete restoration of Poland as a sovereign nation, but good luck in getting the Russians to give up their slice of the pie.

BTW, allowing the Russians to get even closer to the German border is a "good negotiating strategy"?
The gods do not deduct from a man's allotted span the hours spent in fishing.
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Re: If France doesn't fall in 1940 and Hitler is kaput, how do the Schwarze Kapelle continue the war?

#4

Post by ljadw » 12 Aug 2018, 19:13

There was no such thing as a Schwarze Kapelle in n1940 .

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Re: If France doesn't fall in 1940 and Hitler is kaput, how do the Schwarze Kapelle continue the war?

#5

Post by ljadw » 12 Aug 2018, 19:15

Futurist wrote:
12 Aug 2018, 02:42
If the German invasion of France would have failed in 1940 (as a result of France not sending its Seventh Army to the Low Countries and as a result of France defending the Ardennes more), and if the Schwarze Kapelle would have subsequently overthrown Hitler and the Nazis and failed to make peace with the Anglo-French afterwards (due to their desired peace terms being too different), how would the Schwarze Kapelle continue the war against the Anglo-French?

Would the SK adopt a purely defensive strategy similar to the Hindenburg Line in World War I in the hopes of bleeding the Anglo-French dry and thus getting the Anglo-French to agree to better peace terms?

Also, how would the SK deal with the risk of starvation in Germany as a result of the British blockade? Would they subject Czechs, Poles, and Jews to starvation so that there would be enough food to feed the entire German population (so that the German population won't rebel against them)?

In addition to this, I would like to bring up a radical idea that I've previously thought about before--having the SK withdraw to Germany's 1914 borders in the east and let the Soviet Union occupy the rest of Poland. I mean, such a move would obviously be very risky since the Soviet Union would now have a long border (as opposed to a short border--which it would get by occupying and annexing the Baltic countries) with Germany and since 10-15% of the German population are Communist sympathizers. However, it's worth noting that Poland, the Baltic countries, Romania, Turkey, Iran, Afghanistan, and China all survived either for a couple of decades or indefinitely in spite of having a common border with the Soviet Union. Thus, why can't the more powerful Germany do the same thing?

The logic behind a German withdrawal to the 1914 borders in the East would be to make it impossible for Britain and France to recreate an independent non-Communist Poland (due to most of Poland's population ending up under Soviet rule). This would piss off Britain and France beyond belief, but it might be better from Germany's perspective than not doing this, continuing the war to the very end, and then having millions of ethnic Germans get expelled from Eastern Europe. That's the problem for the SK--if it can't make peace with Britain and France (due to too much disagreement), Germany is going to be screwed in the long(er)-run--which is why I am proposing a "Hail Mary" approach of letting the Soviet Union occupy most of Poland while allowing Germany to keep the parts of Poland--specifically those within Germany's 1914 borders--that German nationalists actually care about.

Anyway, any thoughts on everything that I wrote here?
Why should the SU accept the German offer to occupy the whole of Poland ?

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Re: If France doesn't fall in 1940 and Hitler is kaput, how do the Schwarze Kapelle continue the war?

#6

Post by Kingfish » 12 Aug 2018, 19:28

ljadw wrote:
12 Aug 2018, 19:15
Why should the SU accept the German offer to occupy the whole of Poland ?
Bigger buffer between the motherland and an inevitable enemy
The gods do not deduct from a man's allotted span the hours spent in fishing.
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Re: If France doesn't fall in 1940 and Hitler is kaput, how do the Schwarze Kapelle continue the war?

#7

Post by Futurist » 13 Aug 2018, 00:24

Kingfish wrote:
12 Aug 2018, 15:57
Futurist wrote:
12 Aug 2018, 02:43
In the grand scheme of things, it might be a good negotiating strategy for the SK to threaten to throw most of Poland to the Soviet wolves if Britain and France don't give them the peace terms that they want.
But Poland is already lost so what would it matter to the British and French if the occupier is flying the German or Russian flag? The only offer they would consider would be the complete restoration of Poland as a sovereign nation, but good luck in getting the Russians to give up their slice of the pie.
If the lion's share of Poland is now under Russian rule, though, would it actually make sense for Britain and France to continue fighting Germany?
BTW, allowing the Russians to get even closer to the German border is a "good negotiating strategy"?
The logic behind this is that Britain and France would lose much of their incentive in fighting Germany if the lion's share of Poland would now be under Soviet rather than German rule.

Of course, this could severely backfire on the Germans by making Britain and France determined to nevertheless crush the Germans so that the Germans can't invade any additional countries and subsequently throw them to the Soviet wolves. Still, recreating an independent Poland out of only the territories within Germany's 1914 borders is going to be extremely difficult.

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Re: If France doesn't fall in 1940 and Hitler is kaput, how do the Schwarze Kapelle continue the war?

#8

Post by Futurist » 13 Aug 2018, 00:24

ljadw wrote:
12 Aug 2018, 19:13
There was no such thing as a Schwarze Kapelle in n1940 .
So, when were they formed?

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Re: If France doesn't fall in 1940 and Hitler is kaput, how do the Schwarze Kapelle continue the war?

#9

Post by Futurist » 13 Aug 2018, 00:25

ljadw wrote:
12 Aug 2018, 19:15
Futurist wrote:
12 Aug 2018, 02:42
If the German invasion of France would have failed in 1940 (as a result of France not sending its Seventh Army to the Low Countries and as a result of France defending the Ardennes more), and if the Schwarze Kapelle would have subsequently overthrown Hitler and the Nazis and failed to make peace with the Anglo-French afterwards (due to their desired peace terms being too different), how would the Schwarze Kapelle continue the war against the Anglo-French?

Would the SK adopt a purely defensive strategy similar to the Hindenburg Line in World War I in the hopes of bleeding the Anglo-French dry and thus getting the Anglo-French to agree to better peace terms?

Also, how would the SK deal with the risk of starvation in Germany as a result of the British blockade? Would they subject Czechs, Poles, and Jews to starvation so that there would be enough food to feed the entire German population (so that the German population won't rebel against them)?

In addition to this, I would like to bring up a radical idea that I've previously thought about before--having the SK withdraw to Germany's 1914 borders in the east and let the Soviet Union occupy the rest of Poland. I mean, such a move would obviously be very risky since the Soviet Union would now have a long border (as opposed to a short border--which it would get by occupying and annexing the Baltic countries) with Germany and since 10-15% of the German population are Communist sympathizers. However, it's worth noting that Poland, the Baltic countries, Romania, Turkey, Iran, Afghanistan, and China all survived either for a couple of decades or indefinitely in spite of having a common border with the Soviet Union. Thus, why can't the more powerful Germany do the same thing?

The logic behind a German withdrawal to the 1914 borders in the East would be to make it impossible for Britain and France to recreate an independent non-Communist Poland (due to most of Poland's population ending up under Soviet rule). This would piss off Britain and France beyond belief, but it might be better from Germany's perspective than not doing this, continuing the war to the very end, and then having millions of ethnic Germans get expelled from Eastern Europe. That's the problem for the SK--if it can't make peace with Britain and France (due to too much disagreement), Germany is going to be screwed in the long(er)-run--which is why I am proposing a "Hail Mary" approach of letting the Soviet Union occupy most of Poland while allowing Germany to keep the parts of Poland--specifically those within Germany's 1914 borders--that German nationalists actually care about.

Anyway, any thoughts on everything that I wrote here?
Why should the SU accept the German offer to occupy the whole of Poland ?
Because of the desire to spread the Communist Revolution, of course. Also, a larger buffer zone against Germany would probably be nice.

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Re: If France doesn't fall in 1940 and Hitler is kaput, how do the Schwarze Kapelle continue the war?

#10

Post by Kingfish » 13 Aug 2018, 11:16

Futurist wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 00:24
If the lion's share of Poland is now under Russian rule, though, would it actually make sense for Britain and France to continue fighting Germany?
Well, given that for the 10 month period between the fall of Poland and your WI the allies had been actively fighting the Germans I would say yes.
I fail to see how the ceding of additional territory of an already conquered Poland would change that.
The gods do not deduct from a man's allotted span the hours spent in fishing.
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Re: If France doesn't fall in 1940 and Hitler is kaput, how do the Schwarze Kapelle continue the war?

#11

Post by ljadw » 13 Aug 2018, 16:21

Futurist wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 00:24
ljadw wrote:
12 Aug 2018, 19:13
There was no such thing as a Schwarze Kapelle in n1940 .
So, when were they formed?
Rote Kapelle was a communist inspired spy organisation in Germany and Western Europe . There was no such thing as a Schwarze Kapelle :there was no Western oriented spy organisation in Germany, and even after Stalingrad, the opponents of Hitler did nothing else than to talk and to look at each other who would make the first step;besides, these opponents did not oppose Hitler's attack on Poland and the German reign of terror in that country .

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Re: If France doesn't fall in 1940 and Hitler is kaput, how do the Schwarze Kapelle continue the war?

#12

Post by ljadw » 13 Aug 2018, 16:31

Futurist wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 00:25
ljadw wrote:
12 Aug 2018, 19:15
Futurist wrote:
12 Aug 2018, 02:42
If the German invasion of France would have failed in 1940 (as a result of France not sending its Seventh Army to the Low Countries and as a result of France defending the Ardennes more), and if the Schwarze Kapelle would have subsequently overthrown Hitler and the Nazis and failed to make peace with the Anglo-French afterwards (due to their desired peace terms being too different), how would the Schwarze Kapelle continue the war against the Anglo-French?

Would the SK adopt a purely defensive strategy similar to the Hindenburg Line in World War I in the hopes of bleeding the Anglo-French dry and thus getting the Anglo-French to agree to better peace terms?

Also, how would the SK deal with the risk of starvation in Germany as a result of the British blockade? Would they subject Czechs, Poles, and Jews to starvation so that there would be enough food to feed the entire German population (so that the German population won't rebel against them)?

In addition to this, I would like to bring up a radical idea that I've previously thought about before--having the SK withdraw to Germany's 1914 borders in the east and let the Soviet Union occupy the rest of Poland. I mean, such a move would obviously be very risky since the Soviet Union would now have a long border (as opposed to a short border--which it would get by occupying and annexing the Baltic countries) with Germany and since 10-15% of the German population are Communist sympathizers. However, it's worth noting that Poland, the Baltic countries, Romania, Turkey, Iran, Afghanistan, and China all survived either for a couple of decades or indefinitely in spite of having a common border with the Soviet Union. Thus, why can't the more powerful Germany do the same thing?

The logic behind a German withdrawal to the 1914 borders in the East would be to make it impossible for Britain and France to recreate an independent non-Communist Poland (due to most of Poland's population ending up under Soviet rule). This would piss off Britain and France beyond belief, but it might be better from Germany's perspective than not doing this, continuing the war to the very end, and then having millions of ethnic Germans get expelled from Eastern Europe. That's the problem for the SK--if it can't make peace with Britain and France (due to too much disagreement), Germany is going to be screwed in the long(er)-run--which is why I am proposing a "Hail Mary" approach of letting the Soviet Union occupy most of Poland while allowing Germany to keep the parts of Poland--specifically those within Germany's 1914 borders--that German nationalists actually care about.

Anyway, any thoughts on everything that I wrote here?
Why should the SU accept the German offer to occupy the whole of Poland ?
Because of the desire to spread the Communist Revolution, of course. Also, a larger buffer zone against Germany would probably be nice.
There was no desire in 1940 to spread the communist revolution,and this buffer zone was only theoretical : the Kremlin knew that the occupation of Poland only brought big problems for the Tsars, and we know that it was the same for the SU after the war :already in 1956 the Kremlin had to yield to the Polish demands .
The SU did not occupy Finland, although it could do it, it did not transform its occupation zone in Austria in a satellite state with the name of Eastern Austria, although it could have done it .The SU only asked in 1939 the territories where the Poles were a minority , they did not want Warsaw......
Stalin was not Trotsky .

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Re: If France doesn't fall in 1940 and Hitler is kaput, how do the Schwarze Kapelle continue the war?

#13

Post by Stephen_Rynerson » 17 Aug 2018, 05:53

ljadw wrote:
13 Aug 2018, 16:21
There was no such thing as a Schwarze Kapelle
You can argue about the effectiveness of the Schwarze Kapelle, but I don't think its existence is in dispute: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwarze_Kapelle

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Re: If France doesn't fall in 1940 and Hitler is kaput, how do the Schwarze Kapelle continue the war?

#14

Post by ljadw » 17 Aug 2018, 06:42

Rote Kapelle was a communist spygroup . As Schwarze Kapelle was not spying for the West, there was no Schwarze Kapelle .

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