Would Poland be willing to trade Danzig for German military assistance to retake the Kresy?

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Would Poland be willing to trade Danzig for German military assistance to retake the Kresy?

Post by Futurist » 06 Sep 2018 03:56

Here's the scenario that I am thinking of here: Due to France doing a better job of defending the Ardennes, the Manstein Plan fails and thus France doesn't fall in 1940. After several months, Hitler and the Nazis are overthrown and replaced by a military junta of anti-Nazi German generals.

Britain and France offer an armistice to the new German government in exchange for having it withdraw from all of Poland. However, they would also be willing to recognize Danzig as a part of Germany if the new German government will militarily assist Poland in trying to militarily retake the Kresy (eastern Poland).

Now, my question is this--would Poland actually be interested in this? In other words, would Poland be willing to allow Danzig to reunite with Germany in exchange for German military assistance in a war between Poland and the Soviet Union over control of the Kresy? Or would Poland be willing to permanently give up on the Kresy as the price of preventing Danzig from reuniting with Germany?

Any thoughts on this?

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Re: Would Poland be willing to trade Danzig for German military assistance to retake the Kresy?

Post by Futurist » 06 Sep 2018 03:59

Also, for what it's worth, I am thinking of Britain and France retaining a large number of military forces on their border with Germany as well as retaining their blockade of Germany in order to serve as insurance against Germany.

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Re: Would Poland be willing to trade Danzig for German military assistance to retake the Kresy?

Post by pugsville » 06 Sep 2018 04:31

[1] Poland.

Trust, lack there of. Won't work. After the conquest of Poland, German occupation was fairly brutal from the start, Here's some stuff from Wikipedia, and yes Wikipedia is not a great source, and I'm not necessarily supporting all claims and numbers, but my contention is (a) the German occupation was brutal from the start (b) the concept of a polish nation, people ,culture was under brutal attack.

the Idea after a year of German occupation (failure of the campaign of France, replacement of Hitler, reasonable timeline september1940) the poles are going to somehow allow German troops into some restored Poland for anytreason what so ever is beyond mere pipe-dream.

The Year of occupation would have created deep , deep scars that isn't going to by prepared over easily.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupatio ... 80%931945)
"By the end of 1940, at least 325,000 Poles from annexed lands were forcibly resettled in the General Government, forced to abandon most of their property"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_cu ... rld_War_II

"Nazi Germany engaged in a concentrated effort to destroy Polish culture. To that end, numerous cultural and educational institutions were closed or destroyed, from schools and universities, through monuments and libraries, to laboratories and museums. Many employees of said institutions were arrested and executed as part wider persecutions of Polish intellectual elite. Schooling of Polish children was curtailed to a few years of elementary education, as outlined by Himmler's May 1940 memorandum: "The sole goal of this schooling is to teach them simple arithmetic, nothing above the number 500; writing one's name; and the doctrine that it is divine law to obey the Germans. ... I do not think that reading is desirable".[10]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_P ... ook-Poland
"was the proscription list prepared by the Germans immediately before the onset of war, that identified more than 61,000 members of Polish elites: activists, intelligentsia, scholars, actors, former officers, and prominent others, who were to be interned or shot on the spot upon their identification following the invasion.["

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Tannenberg
" Operation Tannenberg was closely followed by the Intelligenzaktion, a second phase of the Unternehmen Tannenberg directed by Heydrich's Sonderreferat from Berlin. It lasted until January 1940. In Pomerania alone, 36,000–42,000 Poles, including children, were killed before the end of 1939"

"In the course of Operation Tannenberg patients from Polish hospitals were murdered in Wartheland (Wielkopolska) by Einsatzgruppe VI under Herbert Lange. He was appointed commandant of the first Chełmno extermination camp soon thereafter.[7] Already by mid-1940, Lange and his men were responsible for the murder of about 1,100 patients in Owińska, 2,750 patients at Kościan, 1,558 patients and 300 Poles at Działdowo who were shot in the back of the neck; and hundreds of Poles at Fort VII where the mobile gas-chamber (Einsatzwagen) was first developed along with the first gassing bunker"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crime ... rld_War_II

"As part of the concerted effort to destroy Polish cultural heritage, the Germans closed universities, schools, museums, public libraries, and dismantled scientific laboratories.[2][122] They tore down monuments to national heroes"

{2] France and Britain.

What makes you think Britain and France would settle for a oops sorry for starting the war bygones will be bygones German call it off peace treaty?

France and Britain would have spent a lot of money, September 1940 whats the state of British finances? At great costs Britain gears up for war and mobilizes the public, economic resources and is ready for war and it just going to accept that it was all a mistake and trust an massively armed Germany? In 1943 or something how is Britain or France going to mobilizes again if it turns sour? They have gone to great expense, public opinion just cannot be turned on and off like a tap. They are simply could not accept a status quo peace at that point.

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Re: Would Poland be willing to trade Danzig for German military assistance to retake the Kresy?

Post by Futurist » 08 Sep 2018 00:03

You certainly made some excellent points, pugsville! Basically, there would have probably been a very serious problem for Poland to ally with Germany--even under a new, non-Nazi German government--after all of the war crimes and atrocities that Germany had already committed in Poland. This would be especially true if Poland's leadership believed that Germany's new leaders don't actually care about Poland but rather agreed with Hitler's views and only overthrew him because he was losing the war (rather than out of any moral disgust at what he was doing).

Also, your point about Britain and France is certainly valid. I mean, they wouldn't be able to keep large armies stationed near the armistice lines with Germany for months and especially years, now would they? After all, as you implied, if they even partially demobilize while Germany doesn't, what is to prevent Germany from going after them if/after it defeats the Soviet Union? Also, how exactly are Britain and France going to ensure that German war aims in the East will remain limited? For instance, what if the Germans will try to capture much more than just the Kresy--for instance, by setting up an independent, German-aligned Ukraine?

I do have one concern, though--are Britain and France actually willing to wage a long war against Germany? Indeed, is Danzig worth an additional million British and French lives?

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Re: Would Poland be willing to trade Danzig for German military assistance to retake the Kresy?

Post by pugsville » 09 Sep 2018 10:24

Futurist wrote:
08 Sep 2018 00:03
I do have one concern, though--are Britain and France actually willing to wage a long war against Germany? Indeed, is Danzig worth an additional million British and French lives?
By 1939 no one was believing Hitler, he was perceived at being hell bent on expansion, totally untrustworthy, breaking treaties without a qualm. They had given several inches and he had taken 100,000 of square miles, he was engaged in building armed forces as fast as the German economy would allow. German armaments meant that Britain and France had to strain their economies or fall a long way behind.

Hitler's Germany was unwilling to work in peaceful framework. They had repeatedly given in. Hitler's demands kept escalating.

I don't think the leadership of Brittan or France caused a tinker's cuss for Danzig, and when push came to shove not much more for all of Poland.

But Hitler's massively armed rougue state required massive arms expenditure by France and Britain to have some prudent security even in peace.

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Re: Would Poland be willing to trade Danzig for German military assistance to retake the Kresy?

Post by Futurist » 09 Sep 2018 20:33

pugsville wrote:
09 Sep 2018 10:24
Futurist wrote:
08 Sep 2018 00:03
I do have one concern, though--are Britain and France actually willing to wage a long war against Germany? Indeed, is Danzig worth an additional million British and French lives?
By 1939 no one was believing Hitler, he was perceived at being hell bent on expansion, totally untrustworthy, breaking treaties without a qualm. They had given several inches and he had taken 100,000 of square miles, he was engaged in building armed forces as fast as the German economy would allow. German armaments meant that Britain and France had to strain their economies or fall a long way behind.

Hitler's Germany was unwilling to work in peaceful framework. They had repeatedly given in. Hitler's demands kept escalating.

I don't think the leadership of Brittan or France caused a tinker's cuss for Danzig, and when push came to shove not much more for all of Poland.

But Hitler's massively armed rougue state required massive arms expenditure by France and Britain to have some prudent security even in peace.
Yes, all of this is correct; however, please keep in mind that Hitler and the Nazis are overthrown in this scenario and replaced by a new, non-Nazi German regime. It is this German regime that Britain and France are now fighting--not the Nazis!

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Re: Would Poland be willing to trade Danzig for German military assistance to retake the Kresy?

Post by pugsville » 10 Sep 2018 02:12

Futurist wrote:
09 Sep 2018 20:33

Yes, all of this is correct; however, please keep in mind that Hitler and the Nazis are overthrown in this scenario and replaced by a new, non-Nazi German regime. It is this German regime that Britain and France are now fighting--not the Nazis!
I was pointing out the British and French were not fighting for Danzig, but their own security,

I do not see Britain of France having gone to the massive cost of going to war , are going to want to leave things as a matter of trust to ANY German regime.

replacing the Nazis in 1940 wouldhave been difficult, the Nazis had carried out a Nazifcation program of German society. Is every police Chief, Mayor, Head of Professional Association, going to be dismissed, 10,000s of people.

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Re: Would Poland be willing to trade Danzig for German military assistance to retake the Kresy?

Post by Futurist » 10 Sep 2018 02:17

pugsville wrote:
10 Sep 2018 02:12
Futurist wrote:
09 Sep 2018 20:33

Yes, all of this is correct; however, please keep in mind that Hitler and the Nazis are overthrown in this scenario and replaced by a new, non-Nazi German regime. It is this German regime that Britain and France are now fighting--not the Nazis!
I was pointing out the British and French were not fighting for Danzig, but their own security,

I do not see Britain of France having gone to the massive cost of going to war , are going to want to leave things as a matter of trust to ANY German regime.
They were willing to trust Hitler until March 1939, though. If the new German regime is going to show a commitment to rebuilding trust--for instance, by offering to withdraw from Czechia (minus the Sudetenland) as well as from most of Poland, then I would suspect that Britain and France are going to notice this.

Of course, here is the issue--if the new, non-Nazi German regime is only willing to withdraw from most of Poland and not from all of Poland (let alone from Danzig), are Britain and France going to be generous enough to make peace with this German regime? Or would they want a complete return to the way that things were in August 1939--or perhaps even in January 1939?
replacing the Nazis in 1940 wouldhave been difficult, the Nazis had carried out a Nazifcation program of German society. Is every police Chief, Mayor, Head of Professional Association, going to be dismissed, 10,000s of people.
I'm presuming that these German officials are going to have a chance to express their loyalty to the new, non-Nazi German government. If they do this, they'll probably keep their posts.

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Re: Would Poland be willing to trade Danzig for German military assistance to retake the Kresy?

Post by pugsville » 10 Sep 2018 12:11

Futurist wrote:
10 Sep 2018 02:17


They were willing to trust Hitler until March 1939, though. If the new German regime is going to show a commitment to rebuilding trust--for instance, by offering to withdraw from Czechia (minus the Sudetenland) as well as from most of Poland, then I would suspect that Britain and France are going to notice this.

Of course, here is the issue--if the new, non-Nazi German regime is only willing to withdraw from most of Poland and not from all of Poland (let alone from Danzig), are Britain and France going to be generous enough to make peace with this German regime? Or would they want a complete return to the way that things were in August 1939--or perhaps even in January 1939?
Futurist wrote:
10 Sep 2018 02:17
I'm presuming that these German officials are going to have a chance to express their loyalty to the new, non-Nazi German government. If they do this, they'll probably keep their posts.
The Depth and total nature of the Nazi take over was quite astounding I don;t think changing a few people at the top is going to change anything.

The Nazi had systematically overtaken just about all organizations. Like your local hunting club, marching band, professional veterinary association, sports club, union, all associations had been taken over by Nazis, Nazis were appointed to run them and all funds transferred to the Nazi party.

You have storm troopers, and the SS (100,000 man mini army in early 1940), Gestapo, numbering 100,000s of people, many of them Armed.. Running concentration camps, often with there corrupt business interests, Goering's Empire. How can you have a new regime with all that in place?

Are you going repeal all laws passed since 1933?

IF the Nazis control the police, courts, government officials, unions, how wll the generals stop them from running society? Just which forces could Army Generals harness for the remaking of Nazi Society?

I think a coup by the Army , would have to follow through with a massive purge of society. Which could be far from non violent. Many people siding with the Nazis had accumulated fortunes, aryanization of business was a lucrative enterprise, Nazi Germany ran on Patronage, the Gauleiters were corrupt to the bone.

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Re: Would Poland be willing to trade Danzig for German military assistance to retake the Kresy?

Post by wm » 18 Sep 2018 02:37

Germany was not going to fight a debilitating war with the largest country on this planet for the benefit of others.

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Re: Would Poland be willing to trade Danzig for German military assistance to retake the Kresy?

Post by Futurist » 18 Sep 2018 02:42

wm wrote:
18 Sep 2018 02:37
Germany was not going to fight a debilitating war with the largest country on this planet for the benefit of others.
Even for the price of Danzig?

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