How many Germans would have settled in Czechia had Germany been able to keep it?

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How many Germans would have settled in Czechia had Germany been able to keep it?

Post by Futurist » 19 Sep 2018 23:41

In a scenario where Germany was able to keep Czechia--for instance, by having Georg Elser kill Hitler in late 1939 and thus having World War II end in a compromise peace which allows Germany to keep Czechia--how many Germans would have settled in Czechia in the next several decades?

It seems to me that Czechia was a good example of Lebensraum (living space) adapted to 20th century realities considering that it was very industrialized and probably very urbanized as well. The 20th century saw a massive rise in urbanization in various countries and thus Czechia seems more suited for 20th century Lebensraum than, say, rural Poland or rural Ukraine or rural Russia is.

Anyway, any thoughts on this?

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Re: How many Germans would have settled in Czechia had Germany been able to keep it?

Post by BDV » 06 Oct 2018 02:33

Unless it's the resettlement of Germans fleeing nationalist and Bolshevik persecution, there would be few customers for this. I'm not sure Germans from Germany would flock to Czechia.

Also, it's theoretically still a protectorate, so I don't know if German govt can just willy nilly plop folk there.
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Re: How many Germans would have settled in Czechia had Germany been able to keep it?

Post by Gorque » 06 Oct 2018 03:23

Perhaps its me being utterly dense, but what hsppens to the natives? Pardon me for employing the vernacular, but do they just go supine, legs-a-spread? I have difficulty embracing that. ☺

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Re: How many Germans would have settled in Czechia had Germany been able to keep it?

Post by Futurist » 06 Oct 2018 04:40

Gorque wrote:
06 Oct 2018 03:23
Perhaps its me being utterly dense, but what hsppens to the natives? Pardon me for employing the vernacular, but do they just go supine, legs-a-spread? I have difficulty embracing that. ☺
The locals there would presumably remain where they are. After all, there should be enough space in Czechia for both Germans and Czechs.

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Re: How many Germans would have settled in Czechia had Germany been able to keep it?

Post by Futurist » 06 Oct 2018 04:41

Also, I suppose that the German government could try encouraging Czechs to emigrate. However, mass deportations and mass murder would be unlikely since it would have been a time of peace and since there wouldn't have been anywhere to deport the Czechs to.

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Re: How many Germans would have settled in Czechia had Germany been able to keep it?

Post by Futurist » 06 Oct 2018 04:43

BDV wrote:
06 Oct 2018 02:33
Unless it's the resettlement of Germans fleeing nationalist and Bolshevik persecution, there would be few customers for this. I'm not sure Germans from Germany would flock to Czechia.
You mean nationalist persecution in countries such as Hungary?

Also, how many Germans settled in Upper Silesia in the days of the German Empire? After all, this might be the best analogy to Czechia since it was pretty industrialized but mostly non-German.
Also, it's theoretically still a protectorate, so I don't know if German govt can just willy nilly plop folk there.
I seem to recall Tunisia being a French protectorate and yet a couple hundred thousand Europeans were allowed to settle there. Why would Czechia have been any different?

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Re: How many Germans would have settled in Czechia had Germany been able to keep it?

Post by Gorque » 07 Oct 2018 01:27

Futurist wrote:
06 Oct 2018 04:40
Gorque wrote:
06 Oct 2018 03:23
Perhaps its me being utterly dense, but what hsppens to the natives? Pardon me for employing the vernacular, but do they just go supine, legs-a-spread? I have difficulty embracing that. ☺
The locals there would presumably remain where they are. After all, there should be enough space in Czechia for both Germans and Czechs.
Hi Futurist:

That would then mean the construction of housing and with additional housing: infrastructure; schools, roads, parks, municipal buildings etc. A much cheaper alternative would be to just dispossess the current inhabitants and transfer their property to the Umsiedler. Additionally, testosterone being what it is, I don't see the Czechs meekly accepting the above as a fait accompli, prior human history being a harbinger.

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Re: How many Germans would have settled in Czechia had Germany been able to keep it?

Post by BDV » 07 Oct 2018 01:39

You mean nationalist persecution in countries such as Hungary?
Not necessarily Hungary (although Swabian and Saxens of Transylvania had serious complaints against Magyar authorities in KuK times). But Romania, Jugoslavia, and most definitely Poland.
Also, it's theoretically still a protectorate, so I don't know if German govt can just willy nilly plop folk there.

I seem to recall Tunisia being a French protectorate and yet a couple hundred thousand Europeans were allowed to settle there. Why would Czechia have been any different?
Each situation is different, I guess. I'm not convinced the scheme would be politically feasible. Especially if the postHitler regime is trying to play nice

Also, these refugees would be mostly peasant stock, not so much developable agro-land available in Czechia. So I guess OstPreussen?
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Re: How many Germans would have settled in Czechia had Germany been able to keep it?

Post by Futurist » 07 Oct 2018 05:31

Gorque wrote:
07 Oct 2018 01:27
Futurist wrote:
06 Oct 2018 04:40
Gorque wrote:
06 Oct 2018 03:23
Perhaps its me being utterly dense, but what hsppens to the natives? Pardon me for employing the vernacular, but do they just go supine, legs-a-spread? I have difficulty embracing that. ☺
The locals there would presumably remain where they are. After all, there should be enough space in Czechia for both Germans and Czechs.
Hi Futurist:

That would then mean the construction of housing and with additional housing: infrastructure; schools, roads, parks, municipal buildings etc. A much cheaper alternative would be to just dispossess the current inhabitants and transfer their property to the Umsiedler. Additionally, testosterone being what it is, I don't see the Czechs meekly accepting the above as a fait accompli, prior human history being a harbinger.
Where exactly would the Czechs be sent to, though? I mean, Germany will have to withdraw from Poland in this scenario. Thus, are the Czechs going to be sent to some location in Germany? Are they going to be scattered throughout Germany to prevent them from forming a critical mass anywhere?

Also, would Britain and France actually be willing to tolerate this?

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Re: How many Germans would have settled in Czechia had Germany been able to keep it?

Post by Futurist » 07 Oct 2018 05:33

BDV wrote:
07 Oct 2018 01:39
You mean nationalist persecution in countries such as Hungary?
Not necessarily Hungary (although Swabian and Saxens of Transylvania had serious complaints against Magyar authorities in KuK times). But Romania, Jugoslavia, and most definitely Poland.
What about Soviet Germans assuming that Stalin actually allows them to emigrate?
Also, it's theoretically still a protectorate, so I don't know if German govt can just willy nilly plop folk there.

I seem to recall Tunisia being a French protectorate and yet a couple hundred thousand Europeans were allowed to settle there. Why would Czechia have been any different?
Each situation is different, I guess. I'm not convinced the scheme would be politically feasible. Especially if the postHitler regime is trying to play nice
As long as the Czechs are not expelled en masse, I think that a post-Hitler German regime would have been able to do this without hurting its relations with Britain and France too much. After all, the German government could claim that Czechia is Germany's Algeria.
Also, these refugees would be mostly peasant stock, not so much developable agro-land available in Czechia. So I guess OstPreussen?
Possibly, if there is actually enough available land there.

Of course, you could try getting Germans to move from urban areas in Germany to urban areas in Czechia.

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Re: How many Germans would have settled in Czechia had Germany been able to keep it?

Post by Gorque » 07 Oct 2018 13:35

Futurist wrote:
07 Oct 2018 05:31
Gorque wrote:
07 Oct 2018 01:27
Futurist wrote:
06 Oct 2018 04:40
Gorque wrote:
06 Oct 2018 03:23
Perhaps its me being utterly dense, but what hsppens to the natives? Pardon me for employing the vernacular, but do they just go supine, legs-a-spread? I have difficulty embracing that. ☺
The locals there would presumably remain where they are. After all, there should be enough space in Czechia for both Germans and Czechs.
Hi Futurist:

That would then mean the construction of housing and with additional housing: infrastructure; schools, roads, parks, municipal buildings etc. A much cheaper alternative would be to just dispossess the current inhabitants and transfer their property to the Umsiedler. Additionally, testosterone being what it is, I don't see the Czechs meekly accepting the above as a fait accompli, prior human history being a harbinger.
Where exactly would the Czechs be sent to, though? I mean, Germany will have to withdraw from Poland in this scenario. Thus, are the Czechs going to be sent to some location in Germany? Are they going to be scattered throughout Germany to prevent them from forming a critical mass anywhere?

Also, would Britain and France actually be willing to tolerate this?
Hi Futurist:

That's the problem with the written word; It's so easy to misconstrue one's intentions. :) I wasn't suggesting expulsion. Far from it. A conquering nation can employ other means (Legal Hook and illegal Crook) in an attempt to dispossess a person/people from their property/employment with the hope of fostering emigration. But in doing so, this will also result in resentment and possible civil disorder by the dispossessed and therefor, slow the rate of German settlement in the region.

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Re: How many Germans would have settled in Czechia had Germany been able to keep it?

Post by David Thompson » 08 Oct 2018 00:01

For the actual German plan (not a What If? scenario) see:

Germanization Plan for Bohemia and Moravia
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=61467

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Re: How many Germans would have settled in Czechia had Germany been able to keep it?

Post by Gorque » 09 Oct 2018 00:42

David Thompson wrote:
08 Oct 2018 00:01
For the actual German plan (not a What If? scenario) see:

Germanization Plan for Bohemia and Moravia
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=61467
Cool. 8-) Thanks for directing this thread in the right direction David. :thumbsup:

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