How many lives would be saved if the July 20th Plot would have succeeded?

Discussions on alternate history, including events up to 20 years before today. Hosted by Terry Duncan.
jesk
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Re: How many lives would be saved if the July 20th Plot would have succeeded?

Post by jesk » 14 Dec 2018 07:27

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
11 Dec 2018 16:14
maltesefalcon wrote:
08 Dec 2018 20:16
May one politely request that you start a new thread instead of derailing this one by discussing theories not related to the topic at hand?
Sid Guttridge wrote:
10 Dec 2018 14:03
Hi Jesk,

Your post doesn't seem to address anything I wrote, even though it is addressed to me.

Please clarify.

Cheers,

Sid.
None of this is unusual for this individual. His posts frequently appear agenda driven & often lack clear connection to the other posts in a thread. Whenever you feel this is the casecase I'd recommend ignoring the digressions & better spend your time and bandwidth addressing the topic & productive discussion.
I just wanted to say, Hitler's murder solved problems of Germans. The landing in Normandy ended in failure, the eastern front rolled back in 1941 ... Everything is clear and simple, without becoming personal. Not in me put, in understanding of actions of Adolf Hitler.

jesk
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Posts: 1973
Joined: 04 Aug 2017 08:19
Location: Belarus

Re: How many lives would be saved if the July 20th Plot would have succeeded?

Post by jesk » 14 Dec 2018 07:37

The Germans can do stupid things as one. Nothing is unusual for this nation. World War II usually slips into a discussion of blunders; as if that makes any sense.
Mr Hague, who ran a "Keep the Pound" campaign when he was Conservative Party leader, told the Spectator that Europe was now having to deal with the fallout from the decision to create the single currency.

"It was folly to create this system. It will be written about for centuries as a kind of historical monument to collective folly. But it's there and we have to deal with it," he said.

"I described the euro as a burning building with no exits and so it has proved for some of the countries in it," he said.

"I might take the analogy too far but the euro wasn't built with exits so it is very difficult to leave it."

maltesefalcon
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Re: How many lives would be saved if the July 20th Plot would have succeeded?

Post by maltesefalcon » 15 Dec 2018 02:33

jesk wrote:
14 Dec 2018 07:27
Carl Schwamberger wrote:
11 Dec 2018 16:14
maltesefalcon wrote:
08 Dec 2018 20:16
May one politely request that you start a new thread instead of derailing this one by discussing theories not related to the topic at hand?
Sid Guttridge wrote:
10 Dec 2018 14:03
Hi Jesk,

Your post doesn't seem to address anything I wrote, even though it is addressed to me.

Please clarify.

Cheers,

Sid.
None of this is unusual for this individual. His posts frequently appear agenda driven & often lack clear connection to the other posts in a thread. Whenever you feel this is the casecase I'd recommend ignoring the digressions & better spend your time and bandwidth addressing the topic & productive discussion.
I just wanted to say, Hitler's murder solved problems of Germans. The landing in Normandy ended in failure, the eastern front rolled back in 1941 ... Everything is clear and simple, without becoming personal. Not in me put, in understanding of actions of Adolf Hitler.
Ah yes I see it from your point of view now. Hitler being killed on July 20 1944 (per the topic at hand) would obviously have allowed Germany to invent some sort of time machine. How else to explain how his death at the specified point in time would allow a different chain of events in 1941!

jesk
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Posts: 1973
Joined: 04 Aug 2017 08:19
Location: Belarus

Re: How many lives would be saved if the July 20th Plot would have succeeded?

Post by jesk » 15 Dec 2018 10:12

The events would be similar to June 1941. Norway, Italy, Yugoslavia, Kurland, the Germans were there until the surrender only because Hitler wanted it. In the battles in Germany, these troops could be used more effectively. A lot of military capabilities in 1944 appeared after the murder of Hitler.

DerGiLLster
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Joined: 12 Aug 2015 00:38
Location: Chicago

Re: How many lives would be saved if the July 20th Plot would have succeeded?

Post by DerGiLLster » 26 Dec 2018 01:24

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
11 Dec 2018 16:29
DerGiLLster wrote:
10 Dec 2018 11:29
snip
Have not time to dig deep into that. Have seen similar numbers and conclusions elsewhere. It does appear on the surface that a huge portion of those deaths were outside of the ground battles. That is not among the field armies. Soldiers and civilians killed by air attacks outside the ground battle zone, accelerated killing of the Jews and others marked for the Final Solution, some others from malnutrition or declining medical care. I'm recalling that in the last ten months over 5000 German soldiers were subject to the death penalty for alleged or actual desertion.

While a early surrender some time in August-November waives much of that away a high number of deaths should still be expected from the residual disruption of food distribution, reduced medical care, lack of shelter & heat. Most of the prisoners in the nazi occupied territories were in poor health, many already in extremis & could not be expected to survive a autumn or winter while better diet and other improvement had their effect. So, while combat deaths might cease much sooner these other factors would result in several million post war deaths in the next few months. I suspect a analysis of the deaths between April & September or December 1945 might give a few clues in this direction.
It is not hard to point out that many German soldiers who were drafted into service were of poor quality, so an increase of deaths among German soldiers is reasonable to say the least. Do you mind telling me where you got it? I don't mind the wait, but if I am comprehending correctly, you are telling me you have seen similar numbers plus conclusions elsewhere. Why would Jews marked for execution be something to include in Germanys civilian deaths? We count most of the Jewish population from Poland and the Soviet Union, from the 1938 census. Unless I am missing something here.

Kerhsaw was talking about the deaths of German people. Most of the people who were prisoners were not Germans, but were slave laborers from other countries, specifically the Eastern Front, as a result this becomes a huge boon for the the Soviets. Their people survive and so do the Germans.

You have a lot on your shoulders to prove how an earlier end to the the war, giving that earlier supply lines in Europe allowing food and supplies to get to civilians and POWs, could still mark in millions of deaths. Not trying to be rude, but a source relating would be helpful. Your statement just seems bizarre. This is not the Japanese on their islands, this is Europe, a bastion of agriculture only rivaled by that of the United States.

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