If France doesn't fall in 1940 and the Western Allies win the war, is Hungary forced to give back its territorial gains?

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wm
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Re: If France doesn't fall in 1940 and the Western Allies win the war, is Hungary forced to give back its territorial ga

Post by wm » 14 Jan 2019 11:13

In 1945 Churchill was perceived as a warmonger who wanted war with Russia, and much more was interested in the distant war with Japan than his own people well being, and that was one of the main reason of his unprecedented defeat.

By supporting war with Hungary, a country trying to sign peace with the Allies for years he would merely seal his fate earlier.

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Re: If France doesn't fall in 1940 and the Western Allies win the war, is Hungary forced to give back its territorial ga

Post by Sid Guttridge » 14 Jan 2019 13:52

Hi wm,

Certainly Churchill was associated with a victorious war, and rightly so, but the idea that he was perceived as wanting war with the USSR, which was still an ally in the war against Japan, is ludicrous.

Churchill was running on his past war record, whereas Labour was running on the promise of a fruitful peace. People therefore voted for the promise of a better domestic future, rather than memories of a fading imperial past.

Cheers,

Sid.

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wm
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Re: If France doesn't fall in 1940 and the Western Allies win the war, is Hungary forced to give back its territorial ga

Post by wm » 14 Jan 2019 14:27

Generally, I've read that it was war weariness:
Churchill's fame as a war leader was now a very mixed blessing. The repeated emphasis he gave to the need to finish the war against Japan suggested once more that war was his only real interest.
The East End of London was flooded with rumours that he was planning a war against Russia.
...
The notion that the Conservatives were defeated by 'the forces vote' is mistaken - as the opinion polls showed, the civilian vote was strongly pro-Labour - but war weariness was probably a factor against Churchill among civilians and servicemen alike.

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Re: If France doesn't fall in 1940 and the Western Allies win the war, is Hungary forced to give back its territorial ga

Post by Pavel Novak » 14 Jan 2019 17:45

In my opinion the question if Hungary can keep territory which gained from Czechoslovakia depends entirely on question if Czechoslovakia is recreated and in what form. The attention to the main peace treaties after ww1 somehow overshadow facts that Czechoslovak-Hungarian border after ww1 was not created by treaty but by situation on the ground - where the troops actually were once the fighting ended. Treaties then only acknowledged this and I think that it would be same in scenario depicted in this thread.

Protectorate will surely become free country in western victorious scenario but there is question: if Czech government is able to secure Sudetenland and also Slovakia. I am pretty sure that Sudetenland will have priority (same as after ww1). Only if Czech government succeed in securing Sudetenland they will continue to Slovakia (and Ruthenia) if enough forces are available. If they fail to capture Sudetenland I do not think that they would even try to invade Slovakia.

There is also question regarding border issues with Poland. Czechoslovak government was pretty aggressive militarily after ww2 regarding these issues but there were Soviets who forced Czechoslovak and Polish governments to just reintroduce 1930 border. But now it will be about who has more troops in the region - if restored western part of Czechoslovakia or restored western part of Poland.

Further question is how Slovaks would look on government in Prague. If they are willing to defend themselves or not because if they show resolute resistance against Prague the Czech government could decide that it is not worthy and we would have just independent Slovakia who cannot do anything against Hungary on its own and nobody would force Hungarians (sort of Nazi ally) just to cede territory to Slovakia (another sort of Nazi ally) and Ruthenia would be ignored completely (unless Soviets would try anything as they would now have common border here).

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Re: If France doesn't fall in 1940 and the Western Allies win the war, is Hungary forced to give back its territorial ga

Post by Sid Guttridge » 16 Jan 2019 13:54

Hi wm,

Mere rumours without substantiation in an already largely pro-Labour area that amounted to barely 1% of the national population are not much to hang a thesis on.

But yes, war weariness was a major factor. Labour, as I said above, was running on the promise of a fruitful peace, whereas Churchill was associated with the war. Nevertheless, Chiurchill's personal approval rating remained high, so clearly this cwasn't the main factor in the Tory defeat.

Cheers,

Sid.

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