You Are Russian Tsar Nicholas II in 1893

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You Are Russian Tsar Nicholas II in 1893

Post by Futurist » 02 Jan 2019 09:13

What would you do if you were Russian Tsar Nicholas II in 1893?

As for me, I would:

-Not marry Alexandra. I don't want to marry someone who carries the gene for hemophilia (or who is at risk of carrying this gene, given 19th century medical knowledge).
-Immediately abolish the Pale of Settlement and various other forms of anti-Semitic discrimination. Also, encourage Jews to assimilate--for instance, by encouraging Jews to intermarry with Russians. Basically, I want to make Jews feel like they are a part of the larger Russian community--except with a different religion.
-Listen to smart people such as Sergei Witte in regards to economic policy. Also, continue to industrialize the country (Russia) as quickly as possible.
-Militarily intervene in Ottoman Armenia in the mid-1890s to stop the Hamidian massacres while publicly declaring that Russia is only interested in Ottoman Armenia and Trebizond and has no desire to capture the Straits in this war. Also, hope that this is enough to deter any of the other Great Powers from militarily intervening in this conflict against Russia.
-Look for easy opportunities for territorial expansion by making deals with various other powers. For instance, let Japan acquire some or all of Korea in exchange for a Russian free hand in Manchuria, Mongolia, and Xinjiang. I would especially like to annex Mongolia (including Inner Mongolia) and Xinjiang (Manchuria probably already has too many Chinese people for me to annex it). Also, offer to partition Afghanistan and Persia with Britain and publicly declare that Russia has no interest in British India since Russia only wants sparsely populated living space and not territories with an extremely massive population.
-Seek an agreement with Austria-Hungary over the Balkans. The Balkans are not worth a world war. Also, as much as I want to dismantle Austria-Hungary, I don't want to risk getting overthrown for this--and that is what might happen if I fight A-H and Germany militarily intervenes.
-Keep the alliance with France for security reasons and also to increase the odds of getting a lot of loans from France which could be used to help further develop and industrialize Russia.
-Focus a lot on railroad building and on things such as spreading electricity and modern technology throughout Russia. For instance, it would be extremely great if most rural peasants in Russia had electricity in their houses.
-Create a Duma (parliament) and work with it to improve the lives of the peasants (through things such as land reform) as well as the lives of the urban working class (for instance, by improving living conditions in the cities and by improving conditions in the factories). Also, nominally retain a lot of power for myself but let the Duma make a lot of the big decisions in regards to domestic policy. I would like a free hand in regards to foreign policy in order to try further expanding Russia, though.
-I was flirting with this but I'm not really sure about this--let any African-American who isn't a criminal and who wants to come to Russia do so. This would send a powerful symbolic message against the U.S.'s treatment of African-Americans and would bode well with my other humanitarian policies such as ending the Pale of Settlement and ending anti-Semitic discrimination.
-Implement universal suffrage in Russia in order to create a Duma which is actually representative of the wishes of the Russian people.
-Tell Serbia and Serbian government officials not to support or sponsor any terrorists. Also, tell Serbia that it is on its own if Austria-Hungary attacks it after a terrorist attack.
-Recruit skilled immigrants from all over the world to help Russia and the Russian economy develop.
-Aggressively encourage settlement and economic development in the eastern and southern parts of Russia in the hopes of making those regions much more prosperous, populous, and dynamic.

Anyway, what exactly am I missing here? Also, how exactly does all of this sound?

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Re: You Are Russian Tsar Nicholas II in 1893

Post by South » 02 Jan 2019 13:13

Good morning Futurist,

It sounds like the material that was actively worked on - pro and con - during this specific era.

Yes, indeed, Sergi Witte knew how to work economic policy. Witte was a/the Czar's rep at Portsmouth, New Hampshire re the formal treaty ending the Ru-Ja War of 1904-05. He was a key knowledge- bank who knew how to get things done. Believe some in the royal family did not like him.

Was not Czar Nicholas as antisemitic as they come ? The Pale of Settlement was also a requirement of the dynasty, the Russian Orthodox Church and the others not wanting to "mingle". There were modifications later and believe places like Irkurst, a key station on the TransSiberian RR used much Jewish labor and skilled artisans. I mention Irkurst as considering it perhaps a "pressure valve". Do recall Czar Alexandia ("Czar Liberator") freed the serfs. He was assassinated.

Judaism, as practiced then, until more reforms evolved, was less a "religion" and more so a "life style". One of Martin Luther's first writings offered the Jewish population of his area a freedom from the discrimination they endured - and Luther's position was not accepted.

Was there not a Russian presence in Xinjiang in 1893 - small but simil

ar to the other minority ethnic groups ? Russian ethnics still get listed as a minority ethnic group in China's Xinjiang.

Mongolia; As early as 1864, the Tacheng Treaty of 1864, ceded to Russia what is called "Great Northwest Area" ... on peripheral areas of China and Mongolia. An area near (west, northwest - east of "Great Northwest Area") contemporary northwest Mongolia, proclaimed independent in 1821 and later annexed by Russia in 1944. Aforesaid relates to building/defending a railroad .

Russia already had a decent sphere of influence in the northern third of Persia.

The Pamirs, east of Afghanistan, already secretly divided between the UK and Ru in 1896. Afghanistan was the buffer bwtween the Czar's Russias and the Brit's India.

My agreement with just about all above - must leave soon so can't ramble about the Duma - but the big headache for Nicholas was ... can't say it in southern Californiaese but do know the word in Chinese. In American English, it's "el money". Sergi Witte kept the government in debt to get the railroad built. Just like always, there were competing demands for the wealth transfers.

......

Re: "if most rural peasants in Russia had electricity in their houses"; If you can get an English-language translation of any proposed plan, we need it here in rural Virginia. Even with our recently buried wires, somewhere the wires are above ground - and presto, an ice storm causes problems here.

Meanwhile, back at the summer palace.........

~ Bob
eastern Virginia, USA

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Re: You Are Russian Tsar Nicholas II in 1893

Post by Terry Duncan » 02 Jan 2019 15:00

Futurist wrote:
02 Jan 2019 09:13
What would you do if you were Russian Tsar Nicholas II in 1893?

Anyway, what exactly am I missing here? Also, how exactly does all of this sound?
Grow a spine comes to mind as the biggest single issue to address! The man is in many ways his own worst enemy.

Also, a lot depends on how 'politically correct' and modern day you want to turn this? Anti-Semitism was rather common at the time, and the Tzar is certainly in that camp, so if we examine the events in Russia up to this time it is unlikely the Tzar would achieve much by changing his policy on this matter as the Russian church and populace would likely be alienated by a liberal policy on this subject, indeed, many of the revolutionaries in this period are Jewish and they seek nothing less than an overthrow of the Tzarist system.

As to Alexandra, whilst I would personally agree such a marriage is against the interests of the state, the pair genuinely loved each other, and the problems came when allowing her to dictate policy during the war. Adopting the old Tzarist custom of banishing her to a monastery as soon as she started trying to exert any influence on government would have also worked wonders! The single greatest problem that comes from the marriage would be the hemophilia issue, but simply changing the succession to allow one of the daughters to rule would cure this problem, Grand Duchess Olga was far more sensible and aware than either of her parents and had the makings of a good ruler herself, so being honest about Alexei being unsuitable to become Tzar would have a positive side. It was also possible for Grand Duke Michael to be the heir, though he refused to take on the task when it was possible for him to try to do so.

The Duma is only worth bothering with if Nicholas wants to abandon absolutism, and he clearly did not even vaguely intend to do that, so its effects were mostly counterproductive, so as such he would have been better off adopting the methods of Alexander III.

Serbia really isn't an issue at all at the start of the reign as it is an Austrian ally, Bulgaria is the main Russian interest for most of the period.

Personally, I would look to totally modernise the army and institute a properly trained officer corps, whilst also rooting out the corruption that plagued the system. Something along the lines of the Great Program of 1914 but ten or more years earlier to ensure the Russian army is capable of the tasks it may be required to undertake!

To be honest, changing the succession and modernising the army, plus learning how to be a good absolutist monarch would solve most of the problems the regime had, most of the other issues can be dealt with as they arise. Being a democratic monarch would also work, but in that case, Nicholas would need to learn how to not interfere at all in government, which would probably have been harder for him to accomplish.

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Re: You Are Russian Tsar Nicholas II in 1893

Post by James A Pratt III » 03 Jan 2019 03:02

On Nicholas II I have read a lot on the man. He may have been a lot of things but he was not stupid or weak willed. He was a intelligent if flawed man who got the job as Tsar after his father Alexander III died before his time. In order to have got Russia from almost medieval agricultural state to a industrialized modern nation he would have had to have been a military-political genius and have a lot of luck. he had neither.

As for Alexandra she was the love of his life and they were of the same political mindset. She had very little to do with running the government even in the 1915-17 period. Nicholas if you read their letters closely often ignored her advise. Note most of the letters are about family and home matters ect No one expected Alexandra to have a son with hemophilia.

As for the Russian anti-semitism ect most Russians at this time were anti-Jewish. Nicholas was to a degree but he was a long way from Hitler. he did try and prevent pogroms in Russia.

As for Witte Nicholas did listen to him. Also note Witte in his memoirs has an ax to grind with Nicholas

As for the Russian economy it was booming most of the time during Nicholas reign pre WW I. Also give him some credit that the Russian military was on the road to recovery in 1914 if only WW I had not broke out.

Immigrants to Russia there were a lot of people immigrating to Russia pre-WW I see the book" Nationalizing the Russian Empire" . There were also many foreign companies doing a lot of business in Russia pre WW I.

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RE You Are Russian Tsar Nicholas II in 1893.

Post by Robert Rojas » 03 Jan 2019 04:51

Greetings to both brother South and the community as a whole. Howdy Bob! Well sir, in light of your posting of Wednesday - January 02, 2019 - 4:13am, given the time period involved, old yours truly was wondering about the ongoing construction status of the TRANS-SIBERIAN RAILROAD after Tsar Nicholas II assumes the power and trappings of the Romanov Dynasty. It is my "understanding" that this Herculean construction project was deeply impacting the Imperial treasury. So, my question is this, will Nicky continue with this project OR will he abandon the project due to the financial strain on his government - not to mention the legion of discontented peasantry who ultimately have to foot the bill for this exercise in national will. After all, there is nothing like domestic instability! Since you have a schtick for this corner of the world and nearly everything that revolves around it, I thought I would offer you "first dibs" with an opportunity to impart your unique perspective on this economic and geopolitical matter. Well, that's my initial two cents or kopecks worth on this sojourn down Motherland lane - for now anyway. As always, I would like to bid you an especially copactic day over in your corner of the Old Dominion that is the Commonwealth of Virginia.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :|
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

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Re: You Are Russian Tsar Nicholas II in 1893

Post by Futurist » 03 Jan 2019 05:27

South wrote:
02 Jan 2019 13:13
Good morning Futurist,

It sounds like the material that was actively worked on - pro and con - during this specific era.

Yes, indeed, Sergi Witte knew how to work economic policy. Witte was a/the Czar's rep at Portsmouth, New Hampshire re the formal treaty ending the Ru-Ja War of 1904-05. He was a key knowledge- bank who knew how to get things done. Believe some in the royal family did not like him.
Yep.
Was not Czar Nicholas as antisemitic as they come ? The Pale of Settlement was also a requirement of the dynasty, the Russian Orthodox Church and the others not wanting to "mingle". There were modifications later and believe places like Irkurst, a key station on the TransSiberian RR used much Jewish labor and skilled artisans. I mention Irkurst as considering it perhaps a "pressure valve". Do recall Czar Alexandia ("Czar Liberator") freed the serfs. He was assassinated.
It appears that Nicholas's views in regards to Jews might have changed for the better later on in his life:

http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/newstudy.html

Still, more research in regards to this might need to be done.

Also, within the Pale of Settlement, Jews lived in the same cities as Gentiles lived in, no?
Judaism, as practiced then, until more reforms evolved, was less a "religion" and more so a "life style". One of Martin Luther's first writings offered the Jewish population of his area a freedom from the discrimination they endured - and Luther's position was not accepted.
So, did Luther only become an anti-Semite later on?
Was there not a Russian presence in Xinjiang in 1893 - small but similar to the other minority ethnic groups ? Russian ethnics still get listed as a minority ethnic group in China's Xinjiang.
I'd like for Xinjiang to become a part of Russia and have much more Russian settlement there, though.
Mongolia; As early as 1864, the Tacheng Treaty of 1864, ceded to Russia what is called "Great Northwest Area" ... on peripheral areas of China and Mongolia. An area near (west, northwest - east of "Great Northwest Area") contemporary northwest Mongolia, proclaimed independent in 1821 and later annexed by Russia in 1944. Aforesaid relates to building/defending a railroad.
You mean 1921, not 1821. Also, in my honest opinion, Russia should have stripped China of Mongolia as soon as the Xinhai Revolution broke out in China. It should have also used this as an opportunity to strip China of Xinjiang if it had not already done so.
Russia already had a decent sphere of influence in the northern third of Persia.
I want outright annexation of at least Persia's Caspain Sea coast, though.
The Pamirs, east of Afghanistan, already secretly divided between the UK and Ru in 1896. Afghanistan was the buffer bwtween the Czar's Russias and the Brit's India.
The Hindu Kush mountains in themselves should be a good enough buffer between Russia and British India, though. Thus, I'd aim to expand Russia up to the Hindu Kush mountains. Britain can do whatever it wants with the part of Afghanistan that is located south of the Hindu Kush mountains.
My agreement with just about all above - must leave soon so can't ramble about the Duma - but the big headache for Nicholas was ... can't say it in southern Californiaese but do know the word in Chinese. In American English, it's "el money". Sergi Witte kept the government in debt to get the railroad built. Just like always, there were competing demands for the wealth transfers.
I don't really see an easy solution to this problem--do you?
Re: "if most rural peasants in Russia had electricity in their houses"; If you can get an English-language translation of any proposed plan, we need it here in rural Virginia. Even with our recently buried wires, somewhere the wires are above ground - and presto, an ice storm causes problems here.

Meanwhile, back at the summer palace.........

~ Bob
eastern Virginia, USA
The rural electrification plan was meant to be for later on in my reign. Since I, as Tsar Nicholas II, was born in 1868, I could reasonably expect to live to the 1940s, 1950s, or even 1960s if I got very lucky.

Didn't FDR bring electricity to a lot of rural areas in the US in the 1930s?

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Re: You Are Russian Tsar Nicholas II in 1893

Post by Futurist » 03 Jan 2019 05:37

Terry Duncan wrote:
02 Jan 2019 15:00
Futurist wrote:
02 Jan 2019 09:13
What would you do if you were Russian Tsar Nicholas II in 1893?

Anyway, what exactly am I missing here? Also, how exactly does all of this sound?
Grow a spine comes to mind as the biggest single issue to address! The man is in many ways his own worst enemy.
I don't necessarily disagree with that.
Also, a lot depends on how 'politically correct' and modern day you want to turn this? Anti-Semitism was rather common at the time, and the Tzar is certainly in that camp, so if we examine the events in Russia up to this time it is unlikely the Tzar would achieve much by changing his policy on this matter as the Russian church and populace would likely be alienated by a liberal policy on this subject, indeed, many of the revolutionaries in this period are Jewish and they seek nothing less than an overthrow of the Tzarist system.
The fact that Russian revolutionaries were willing to accept Jews into their ranks might speak volumes about the tolerance of Jews among the Russian masses, though.

Also, obviously change takes time. Still, this doesn't mean that I can't start the process of change at the start of my reign.
As to Alexandra, whilst I would personally agree such a marriage is against the interests of the state, the pair genuinely loved each other, and the problems came when allowing her to dictate policy during the war. Adopting the old Tzarist custom of banishing her to a monastery as soon as she started trying to exert any influence on government would have also worked wonders! The single greatest problem that comes from the marriage would be the hemophilia issue, but simply changing the succession to allow one of the daughters to rule would cure this problem, Grand Duchess Olga was far more sensible and aware than either of her parents and had the makings of a good ruler herself, so being honest about Alexei being unsuitable to become Tzar would have a positive side. It was also possible for Grand Duke Michael to be the heir, though he refused to take on the task when it was possible for him to try to do so.
How about I only marry Alexandra if she agrees to keep having sons if our first son will be a hemophiliac?

I am wary of changing the Russian succession rules like that because it would be unfair to the other male members of the Russian royal family.
The Duma is only worth bothering with if Nicholas wants to abandon absolutism, and he clearly did not even vaguely intend to do that, so its effects were mostly counterproductive, so as such he would have been better off adopting the methods of Alexander III.
I am perfectly willing to let the Duma largely decide domestic policy by itself. I am not really particularly committed to absolutism and prefer to let the people have a say so that they would know that their views are being listened to rather than ignored. This is why I would also staunchly support freedom of speech, freedom of the press, and freedom of expression.

I think that Alexander III made a mistake in insulating himself from the views and wishes of his people and thus I don't want to repeat his mistake. Also, I am primarily interested in running foreign policy myself; I think that it would be best for elected lawmakers to run Russia's domestic policy.
Serbia really isn't an issue at all at the start of the reign as it is an Austrian ally, Bulgaria is the main Russian interest for most of the period.
Why did Russia switch from Bulgaria to Serbia?
Personally, I would look to totally modernise the army and institute a properly trained officer corps, whilst also rooting out the corruption that plagued the system. Something along the lines of the Great Program of 1914 but ten or more years earlier to ensure the Russian army is capable of the tasks it may be required to undertake!
Completely agreed with all of this.
To be honest, changing the succession and modernising the army, plus learning how to be a good absolutist monarch would solve most of the problems the regime had, most of the other issues can be dealt with as they arise. Being a democratic monarch would also work, but in that case, Nicholas would need to learn how to not interfere at all in government, which would probably have been harder for him to accomplish.
What about only interfering in foreign affairs and not in domestic policy?

Also, I just realized that there is one other thing that I want to do--create an independent Poland with some Romanov King west of the line which ended up being known as the Curzon Line in real life. I view Russia's rule over the Poles as being a huge black mark on Russia's record. Of course, any Pole who wants Russian citizenship and who wants to move to Russia will be free to do so as long as he is not a violent revolutionary or a terrorist.

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Re: You Are Russian Tsar Nicholas II in 1893

Post by South » 03 Jan 2019 10:20

Good morning Uncle Bob,

"first dibs" ! It's been over 6 decades since I heard this expression. My day is made !

For anything to fatigue a national treasury, with all the risks, such as domestic political disturbances, economic development incorporating max use of labor is on the top of the list. This means railroads. Railroads were the big subject of the day and the names Northern Pacific RR (prior names until final mergers), Canadian Pacific RR and the later TransSiberian RR, were the valuable and self-liquidating financial strain on national treasuries.

For all those pretty gold coins leaving the Czar's treasury, were returning gold bricks and much more. One "much more" was connecting European Russia with Vladivostok. Railroads were the new canals. Think of our American wealth-creation via the Erie Canal ("I've got a mule, her name is Sal, 15 miles on the Erie Canal").

I'm dealing in historical trends and not explicitly re 1893.

The geopolitical matters involves the Pacific powers: the UK, Fr, Dutch, German, US, Ja, Spain, Portugal still around there, ... I did not forget the Middle Kingdom. China was involved in the political frictions. Looking at the map, prior to 1893, 1893 and after 1893, some Russians saw a shortcut to Vladivostk from Chita (Some name changes; forgot if it was Chita or Ulan Ude). This shortcut, VERY VISIBLE to the Russian planners, later developed matters geopolitical - because they were inevitable. Francis Gary Powers, an American civilian, ran into this same problem, less than 4 generations later. Powers flew an aircraft from a US allied base in Turkey enroute to a US allied base in Norway. Geopolitical matters produce flareups and railroad workers cannot resolve this category of friction. A strong military is required.

Getting busy now. Must reply to Futurist; want to talk him into joining us in moving to Fort McMurray, Alberta, Canada where there are plenty of good, high-paying jobs in the new shale fields. I'm freezing my CERT vest off here in the Chesapeake Bay winters. Unfortunately for me, I'm not completely compas mentas - of sound mind - . I'd consider an 1893 relocation to Chita, Russia. ......

Unless I went to the movies and saw "Fiddler on the Roof". Then, I'd reevaluate my plans and consider "New York, America" or "Chicago, America".

I am now in the mood for a Harbin rice beer. It's still brewed as a Russian pilsner peva.


~ Bob
eastern Virginia, USA

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Re: You Are Russian Tsar Nicholas II in 1893

Post by South » 03 Jan 2019 11:01

Good morning Futurist,

Pale of Settlement; Believe the Russian "liberalization" allowed for certain craftsmen, professionals, an some etc, to relocate their families to the nice cities. Use discretion with word "gentiles". Recall Lev Tolstoy's first assignment as an Army officer was in a Muslim area.

I believe it correct to say Luther was anti-Jewish. This, however, must be placed in context. He did write "ON WAR AGAINST THE TURK" and he was just as much anti-Roman Catholic. Now, at the time, these "religions" were more than the practice of theological beliefs. They were "life styles", a poor term because I can't think of a better expression.

Russian settlements in Xinjiang requires water. Other than the Lake Bosten - Lop Nor area, life-sustaining water was further west in the Furgana Valley area. Russian General Frunz did "raise the Russian flag" around there.

Yes, 1921.

Other than as buffers, what value was there in Mongolia and Xinjiang ?

Did you not consider a British interest in Persia ?

Any Russian expanded efforts around the Hindu Kush, Palmars and Afghanistan, delays a railroad's construction. Visualize yourself at the conference table. They're not discussing Jewel of Russia vodka. Are any Russian tactical and strategic politico-military improvements worth it ?

Of course there is no easy solution. It continues today. What's more important: a colony on Mars or "Meals on Wheels" to shut-in senior citizens next to a needle-exchange clinic ? Tis a far, far better thing to guard the warehouse while out in the rain than attend the conferences.

I am scribbling and transmitting from a Rural Electrification area established by FDR.

I've decided NOT to relocate to Fort McMurray, Canada even with the good jobs.

I'm also avoiding Siberia and Botany Bay.

~ Bob
eastern Virginia, USA

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Re: You Are Russian Tsar Nicholas II in 1893

Post by James A Pratt III » 04 Jan 2019 05:16

in alexanderpalace.org you can find just about anything you would want to know about Nicholas II, Alexandra and family and royalty. It sort of their version of the axis history forum.

books on Nicholas II I recommend:
Nicholas II Twilight of Empire Dominic Lieven (who has a number of presentations on youtube)
The Last Tsar SS Oldenberg (a old history heavy so to speak on Nicholas II and his reign)
The Russian Revolution Richard Pipes ( a little dated but still good)

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Re: You Are Russian Tsar Nicholas II in 1893

Post by Futurist » 04 Jan 2019 06:39

James A Pratt III wrote:
04 Jan 2019 05:16
in alexanderpalace.org you can find just about anything you would want to know about Nicholas II, Alexandra and family and royalty. It sort of their version of the axis history forum.

books on Nicholas II I recommend:
Nicholas II Twilight of Empire Dominic Lieven (who has a number of presentations on youtube)
The Last Tsar SS Oldenberg (a old history heavy so to speak on Nicholas II and his reign)
The Russian Revolution Richard Pipes ( a little dated but still good)
Yes, I will make sure to check out that forum. Also, thanks for these book recommendations! :)

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Re: You Are Russian Tsar Nicholas II in 1893

Post by South » 04 Jan 2019 10:04

Good morning James,

Richard Pipes' THE RUSSIAN REVOLUTION is high on my list of key contributions.

He goes beyond the tile of a mosaic approach by posing the question if events like the Russian revolution can be viewed "disinterestedly". That is, looking at the Russian revolution also obliges the reader to look at the French revolution. Once the correlations are seen, a clearer picture is visible.

A brief excerpt:

"Post 1789 revolutions have raised the most fundamental ethical questions: whether it is proper to destroy institutions built over centuries by trial and error, for the sake of ideal systems; whether one has the right to sacrifice the well-being and even the lives of one's own generation for the sake of generations yet unborn; whether man can be refashioned into a perfectly virtuous being."

~ Bob
eastern Virginia, USA

"What took 10 years to build, the guns destroyed in 10 minutes." Lev Tolstoy, 1812.

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Re: You Are Russian Tsar Nicholas II in 1893

Post by Terry Duncan » 10 Jan 2019 15:11

A belated reply, but Russia switched from Bulgaria to Serbia as its prime Balkan concern because Bulgaria refused to follow Russian policy whilst Serbia was willing to do so, at the time just prior to the Balkan Wars where both Austria and Russia were trying to form a Balkan League to suit their own needs. After the usual Balkan disagreements and others vying to influence them one way or other, it settled with Austria wanting a Balkan League led by Bulgaria under Austrian tutelage whilst Russia wanted similar with Serbia in the lead role. It would only be a matter of time until the roles switched again had no war intervened.

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Re: You Are Russian Tsar Nicholas II in 1893

Post by Futurist » 02 Feb 2019 23:30

Terry Duncan wrote:
10 Jan 2019 15:11
A belated reply, but Russia switched from Bulgaria to Serbia as its prime Balkan concern because Bulgaria refused to follow Russian policy whilst Serbia was willing to do so, at the time just prior to the Balkan Wars where both Austria and Russia were trying to form a Balkan League to suit their own needs. After the usual Balkan disagreements and others vying to influence them one way or other, it settled with Austria wanting a Balkan League led by Bulgaria under Austrian tutelage whilst Russia wanted similar with Serbia in the lead role. It would only be a matter of time until the roles switched again had no war intervened.
What makes you so sure that the roles would have ultimately switched again without World War I?

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Re: You Are Russian Tsar Nicholas II in 1893

Post by Terry Duncan » 03 Feb 2019 14:30

Futurist wrote:
02 Feb 2019 23:30
Terry Duncan wrote:
10 Jan 2019 15:11
A belated reply, but Russia switched from Bulgaria to Serbia as its prime Balkan concern because Bulgaria refused to follow Russian policy whilst Serbia was willing to do so, at the time just prior to the Balkan Wars where both Austria and Russia were trying to form a Balkan League to suit their own needs. After the usual Balkan disagreements and others vying to influence them one way or other, it settled with Austria wanting a Balkan League led by Bulgaria under Austrian tutelage whilst Russia wanted similar with Serbia in the lead role. It would only be a matter of time until the roles switched again had no war intervened.
What makes you so sure that the roles would have ultimately switched again without World War I?
Mostly because the Balkan politics saw two great powers in what was effectively a bidding race, set against smaller powers seeking to follow their own agenda as much as possible whilst following the wishes of their patrons, when one patron was not willing to follow a certain policy the client would move to seek aid from the other power. You also have the wishes of Russia and Austria-Hungary to constantly thwart each other in the area, coupled with the rivalry of Serbia and Bulgaria seeking to do the same too!

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