What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.

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AriX
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What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.

Post by AriX » 14 Jan 2019 18:53

In this section of the forum I found interesting topics like " What if US fight with Germany from 1939?" or "What if US fight alone with Axis?".
So, in this tread it should be discussed how history would turn if Hitler didn't declare war on US after Perl Harbour attack and try to stay neutral as it can be and US concentrates all its military efforts on war with Japan. Youre thoughts ..

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Re: What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.

Post by OpanaPointer » 14 Jan 2019 21:25

The Atlantic Conference confirmed the principle of "Germany First" laid down at the ABC-1 talks. The US was going to war with Germany. Hitler just accepted the inevitable.
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Takao
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Re: What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.

Post by Takao » 15 Jan 2019 02:47

I believe that the Chicago Daily Tribune covered this on December 4, 1941, under the giant headline "FDR's WAR PLANS!"
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Re: What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.

Post by maltesefalcon » 15 Jan 2019 06:32

The USA was already fighting an undeclared war vs Germany by summer 1941. They had occupied both Iceland and Greenland, to forestall any efforts by Hitler to do so.

US Naval forces were routinely escorting convoys half way across the Atlantic. Several interactions with UBoats ensued, culminating in the sinking of USS Reuben James six weeks before Pearl Harbor.

Hitler declared war in part because he felt Roosevelt would do so anyway. But with the Japanese attack, Congress may not have sanctioned war on two fronts. IMHO Roosevelt would have pressed on regardless and the naval war would continue, if not escalate. The US would also legally be able to ship weapons, oil and food to the UK for use against their common Japanese enemy. A declaration of war by Hitler allowed him to sink any US merchant ships at will.

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Re: What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.

Post by Futurist » 15 Jan 2019 07:39

maltesefalcon wrote:
15 Jan 2019 06:32
But with the Japanese attack, Congress may not have sanctioned war on two fronts.
Would the Brits and the Soviets actually have either the willpower or the capability to march all of the way to Berlin if the Americans refuse to join their war against the Nazis?

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Re: What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.

Post by Delwin » 15 Jan 2019 14:28

If they provide UK and SU with enough equipment - possible, however much more difficult (especially for UK). SU (assuming similar level of LL) was able to reverse the momentum anyway on its own. The question would whether they would able to sustain the losses (they were pretty badly battered in this respect in 1945 in OTL) once Germany can transfer some extra power to EF. However, if they are able to retrieve most of the prewar Poland, the draft from that area (even assuming some extra time needed) would be able to compensate that.

Same story on the West - once the invasion takes place in France, the French can compensate the lack of numbers for Britain.

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Re: What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.

Post by AriX » 15 Jan 2019 17:06

Guys, this thread is not for discussing chances of FDR of declaring war on Germany if Hitler didn't do it. It how about Brits and Soviet would fite with Germans without US military power. Only LL.

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RE: What If: Adolf Hitler did NOT Declare War On The United States of America.

Post by Robert Rojas » 15 Jan 2019 18:04

Greetings to both brother Futurist and the community as a whole. Howdy Futurist (or Alvin Toffler if you so prefer)! Well sir, in respect to your posting of Monday - January 14, 2019 - 10:39pm, old yours truly nearly fell out of my chair when you wondered aloud if the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics would have either the WILLPOWER or the CAPABILITY to march all of the way to Berlin if the United States of America refused to join their war against National Socialist Germany. Well, it is the layman's opinion of old Uncle Bob that Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhgashvili was the very personification of WILLPOWER and given his nihilist penchant for ruthlessness, I rather suspect that the Georgian born General Secretary was more than prepared to fight to the last drop of Russian blood with OR without the overt support of the Roosevelt Administration. After all, this was an individual who was already responsible for the wholesale murder of millions of his own citizenry prior to the events of June 22, 1941 and his following quote is also quite telling of his weltanschauung: "ONE DEATH IS A TRAGEDY, ONE MILLION DEATHS IS A STATISTIC". On the other hand, Soviet Intelligence was making its own strides with its efforts to infiltrate the fledgling Atomic Science Community here in the United States of America which would, in historical hindsight, produce its own geopolitical dividends for Uncle Joe's Workers Paradise. Well, that's my initial two cents, pence, pfennigs or kopecks worth on this hypothetical topic that has been thoroughly beaten to death since the inception of this forum way back in year 2002 - for now anyway. As always. I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day down in your corner of Orange County that is the Magic Kingdom of Disneyland.


Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :|
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

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Re: What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.

Post by maltesefalcon » 16 Jan 2019 00:52

Futurist wrote:
15 Jan 2019 07:39
maltesefalcon wrote:
15 Jan 2019 06:32
But with the Japanese attack, Congress may not have sanctioned war on two fronts.
Would the Brits and the Soviets actually have either the willpower or the capability to march all of the way to Berlin if the Americans refuse to join their war against the Nazis?
You have clipped this quote out of context. In the next passage I indicate that Roosevelt would carry on with the campaign they were already fighting by June 1941, whether Congress approved or not.
Last edited by maltesefalcon on 16 Jan 2019 00:56, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.

Post by maltesefalcon » 16 Jan 2019 00:54

Futurist wrote:
15 Jan 2019 07:39
maltesefalcon wrote:
15 Jan 2019 06:32
But with the Japanese attack, Congress may not have sanctioned war on two fronts.
Would the Brits and the Soviets actually have either the willpower or the capability to march all of the way to Berlin if the Americans refuse to join their war against the Nazis?
IRL only the Soviets marched all the way to Berlin and captured same. The US and UK got there after hostilities had ended.

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Re: What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.

Post by maltesefalcon » 16 Jan 2019 01:02

AriX wrote:
15 Jan 2019 17:06
Guys, this thread is not for discussing chances of FDR of declaring war on Germany if Hitler didn't do it. It how about Brits and Soviet would fite with Germans without US military power. Only LL.
We are commenting on our opinions on the What If as we see it. Some of us feel that Hitler's declaration was moot so war with US was inevitable.
Every reasonable post should be submitted in the spirit that it invites analysis and comment by other members. If you do not feel we should be able to make intelligent counterarguments to your proposal, you may not find this subforum to your liking.

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Re: What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.

Post by Futurist » 16 Jan 2019 01:27

maltesefalcon wrote:
16 Jan 2019 00:52
Futurist wrote:
15 Jan 2019 07:39
maltesefalcon wrote:
15 Jan 2019 06:32
But with the Japanese attack, Congress may not have sanctioned war on two fronts.
Would the Brits and the Soviets actually have either the willpower or the capability to march all of the way to Berlin if the Americans refuse to join their war against the Nazis?
You have clipped this quote out of context. In the next passage I indicate that Roosevelt would carry on with the campaign they were already fighting by June 1941, whether Congress approved or not.
The naval war wouldn't have been as big of a help to the Allied cause as sending ground troops to Europe/North Africa would have been, though.

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Re: What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.

Post by Futurist » 16 Jan 2019 01:28

maltesefalcon wrote:
16 Jan 2019 00:54
Futurist wrote:
15 Jan 2019 07:39
maltesefalcon wrote:
15 Jan 2019 06:32
But with the Japanese attack, Congress may not have sanctioned war on two fronts.
Would the Brits and the Soviets actually have either the willpower or the capability to march all of the way to Berlin if the Americans refuse to join their war against the Nazis?
IRL only the Soviets marched all the way to Berlin and captured same. The US and UK got there after hostilities had ended.
U.S. troops in North Africa and Western Europe helped to relieve Nazi pressure on the Soviets, though.

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Robert Rojas
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RE: What If: Adolf Hitler Did Not Declare War On The United States of America.

Post by Robert Rojas » 16 Jan 2019 17:54

Greetings to both brother Futurist and the community as a whole. Howdy Futurist (of Alvin Toffler if you so prefer)! Well sir, in deference to your point OR points-of-view as articulated within your posting of Tuesday - January 15, 2019 - 4:27pm, old yours truly believes that you might be under estimating the strategic importance of the shipping lanes in both the North and South Atlantic Ocean. Now, since matters that are both Maritime and Naval are not my schtick, I will go out on a limb and offer my assertion that the material output generated from the Arsenal of Democracy that is NORTH AMERICA will come to naught if those merchantmen attempting to sail to the British Isles and the Persian Gulf are successfully interdicted by both the Fatherland's Grey Wolves and masquerading 'Q' ships. After June 22, 1941 the United States of America will extend its geopolitical conveyance of so-called belligerent neutrality to encompass the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Now, I cannot cite chapter and verse on the logistics involved here, but I believe it would be safe to say that the lend lease material support landing in Iranian Ports will prove to be invaluable as the Rodina attempts to stem the tide of Adolf Hitler's onslaught. Remember, it is just as vitally important to feed a nation as it is to provide a nation with armaments. It's just something to ponder. Well, that's my latest two cents, pence, pfennigs or kopecks worth on this topic of the United States of America's "non-involvement" in the European conflict - for now anyway. As always, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day down in your corner of Orange County that is the Magic Kingdom of Disneyland.


Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :|
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

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Re: What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.

Post by T. A. Gardner » 16 Jan 2019 21:10

So long as Germany continued to pursue commerce raiding using U-boats, a war with the US was pretty much inevitable. Now, if Hitler delayed declaring war-- That's a different proposition. He could have given the KM time to redeploy boats to the US coast in anticipation of that move. That might have had a bigger effect. Delay might have had the US thinking they could redeploy more of their Atlantic fleet to the Pacific immediately reducing what they had in the Atlantic more.

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