What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.

Discussions on alternate history, including events up to 20 years before today. Hosted by Terry Duncan.
OpanaPointer
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Re: What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.

Post by OpanaPointer » 19 Jan 2019 12:49

Takao wrote:
15 Jan 2019 02:47
I believe that the Chicago Daily Tribune covered this on December 4, 1941, under the giant headline "FDR's WAR PLANS!"
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2815901/posts
Yep, three shy of treason.
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Re: What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.

Post by Erwinn » 23 Jan 2019 09:36

Naval War would mean nothing if the US cannot bomb German factories like it did originally. They have to Declare War on Germany for bombing campaign. Without US planes stationed in England, the Bombing of the Reich would not be so effective as it did originally. That means a Luftwaffe presence in case of an invasion.

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Re: What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.

Post by OpanaPointer » 23 Jan 2019 14:53

Erwinn wrote:
23 Jan 2019 09:36
Naval War would mean nothing if the US cannot bomb German factories like it did originally. They have to Declare War on Germany for bombing campaign. Without US planes stationed in England, the Bombing of the Reich would not be so effective as it did originally. That means a Luftwaffe presence in case of an invasion.
Hitler depended on blockade. The USN in full war mode made that impossible.
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Re: What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.

Post by maltesefalcon » 24 Jan 2019 00:54

Erwinn wrote:
23 Jan 2019 09:36
Naval War would mean nothing if the US cannot bomb German factories like it did originally. They have to Declare War on Germany for bombing campaign. Without US planes stationed in England, the Bombing of the Reich would not be so effective as it did originally. That means a Luftwaffe presence in case of an invasion.
Most of the USAAF bombs fell in the last 12 months of the war, when the US was well in. So the bombing campaign was not a lynchpin of US involvement until then. They really didn't have much of bombing force there until 1943, when even then it was hit for six.

That being said the bombing force was only incidental to Luftwaffe losses immediately prior to D-Day. The critical factor was the intensive fighter sweeps Jan-June 1944. The Luftwaffe was losing an average of 50% of its fighter strength every month at that point. An unsustainable figure.

In any case war with Germany by 12/41 was inevitable. Perhaps a month or two delay if Hitler kept schtum but not much longer.

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Re: What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.

Post by OpanaPointer » 24 Jan 2019 01:40

And after a shit-load of research I'm confident that FDR could have gotten a D.o.W. by June 30, 1942, he just had to keep the "short of war" really, really short.
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Re: What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.

Post by Futurist » 24 Jan 2019 01:55

OpanaPointer wrote:
24 Jan 2019 01:40
And after a shit-load of research I'm confident that FDR could have gotten a D.o.W. by June 30, 1942, he just had to keep the "short of war" really, really short.
You mean the declaration of war?

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Re: What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.

Post by OpanaPointer » 24 Jan 2019 03:33

Futurist wrote:
24 Jan 2019 01:55
OpanaPointer wrote:
24 Jan 2019 01:40
And after a shit-load of research I'm confident that FDR could have gotten a D.o.W. by June 30, 1942, he just had to keep the "short of war" really, really short.
You mean the declaration of war?
Yeah. Lazy writing, but I can't use my left arm right now.
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Re: What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.

Post by Futurist » 24 Jan 2019 03:51

OpanaPointer wrote:
24 Jan 2019 03:33
Futurist wrote:
24 Jan 2019 01:55
OpanaPointer wrote:
24 Jan 2019 01:40
And after a shit-load of research I'm confident that FDR could have gotten a D.o.W. by June 30, 1942, he just had to keep the "short of war" really, really short.
You mean the declaration of war?
Yeah. Lazy writing, but I can't use my left arm right now.
OK.

Also, how exactly would a "declaration of war short of war" be meaningfully different from an actual declaration of war?

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Re: What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.

Post by OpanaPointer » 24 Jan 2019 04:09

"Short of war" was FDR's policy in 1941. Today's it's called "low intensity conflicts". FDR needed to continue the trend of the US public blaming the Germans for any and all incidents in the Atlantic. If he kept increasing the pressure on the U-boats without overtly running a shooting war American public opinion would back him. When it got to whatever the Sphinx decided was the right level he would go to Congress for a D.o.W.
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Re: What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.

Post by Futurist » 24 Jan 2019 04:29

OpanaPointer wrote:
24 Jan 2019 04:09
"Short of war" was FDR's policy in 1941. Today's it's called "low intensity conflicts". FDR needed to continue the trend of the US public blaming the Germans for any and all incidents in the Atlantic. If he kept increasing the pressure on the U-boats without overtly running a shooting war American public opinion would back him. When it got to whatever the Sphinx decided was the right level he would go to Congress for a D.o.W.
Who was the Sphinx?

Also, would the US have helped the USSR as much as it did in real life in early 1942 if FDR didn't have a DoW yet?

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RE: What If: Adolf Hitler Did Not Declare War On The United States Of America.

Post by Robert Rojas » 24 Jan 2019 06:19

Greetings to both brother Futurist and the community as a whole. Howdy Futurist (or Alvin Toffler if you so prefer). Well sir, in light of your posting of Wednesday - January 23, 2019 - 7:29pm, it is NOT the intention of old yours truly to speak for brother Opana Pointer, BUT as far as I know, THE SPHINX was a NICKNAME for President Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Futurist, you are quite a learned fellow and I find it nothing short of incredulity that you would be questioning the resolve of the United States of America's continuing the flow of material support to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics in year 1942 even without a formal Declaration of War by the United States Congress. Now, it's not exactly a state secret that the preponderance of the AMERICAN LEFT had a misguided love affair with the world's premier "Workers Paradise". On June 22, 1941, the clearly ANTI+WAR LEFT literally changed its tune in a fore night and became the loudest drum beaters for active American involvement in the European conflict. Given the OLD LEFT'S inordinate influence within the Democrat Party, the Labor Movement and the halls of Academia, it is extremely doubtful that there would ever be any slackening of material support for ever kindly old Uncle Joe. Needless to say, as brother T.A. Gardner has more than rightly pointed out, unrestricted submarine warfare would eventually drag the Roosevelt Administration screaming and kicking into the European conflict - especially if the naval casualty was a ship of the line. Well, that's my latest two cents, pfennigs and kopecks worth this sojourn into The Twilight Zone - for now anyway. As always, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day down in your corner of Orange County that is the Magic Kingdom of Disneyland.


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"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

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Re: What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.

Post by AriX » 27 Jan 2019 00:11

maltesefalcon wrote:
16 Jan 2019 01:02

If you do not feel we should be able to make intelligent counterarguments to your proposal, you may not find this subforum to your liking.
This topic is about how history would turn if A.H. didnt start a war with America, not about if U.S would declare war on Germany if Hitler didnt.Read the title carefully

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Re: What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.

Post by OpanaPointer » 27 Jan 2019 02:10

Futurist wrote:
24 Jan 2019 04:29
OpanaPointer wrote:
24 Jan 2019 04:09
"Short of war" was FDR's policy in 1941. Today's it's called "low intensity conflicts". FDR needed to continue the trend of the US public blaming the Germans for any and all incidents in the Atlantic. If he kept increasing the pressure on the U-boats without overtly running a shooting war American public opinion would back him. When it got to whatever the Sphinx decided was the right level he would go to Congress for a D.o.W.
Who was the Sphinx?

Also, would the US have helped the USSR as much as it did in real life in early 1942 if FDR didn't have a DoW yet?
There's a book on FDR entitled THE SPHINX, a very interesting read.

Why would we not help them? Every Nazi they killed was one less we'd face, the polls confirmed that was the public's opinion.
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Re: What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.

Post by maltesefalcon » 28 Jan 2019 14:12

AriX wrote:
27 Jan 2019 00:11
maltesefalcon wrote:
16 Jan 2019 01:02

If you do not feel we should be able to make intelligent counterarguments to your proposal, you may not find this subforum to your liking.
This topic is about how history would turn if A.H. didnt start a war with America, not about if U.S would declare war on Germany if Hitler didnt.Read the title carefully
One might ask you to do the same thing. The title is What if: "Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A."
It is not how history would turn if A.H. didnt start a war with America etc

Your topic should have been something along the line "What If USA focusses only on Japan after Pearl Harbor attack."

One more thing. I'm not the only one that posted alternative scenarios to your topic, but you seem fixated on mine. While I am usually sympathetic to those members whose first language is other than English; anyone with the number of typos and grammatical errors you showed in your original post, might want to think twice before criticizing anyone else's reading skills.

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Re: What if : Hitler didn't declare war on U.S.A.

Post by MarkN » 28 Jan 2019 17:59

AriX wrote:
14 Jan 2019 18:53
In this section of the forum I found interesting topics like " What if US fight with Germany from 1939?" or "What if US fight alone with Axis?".
So, in this tread it should be discussed how history would turn if Hitler didn't declare war on US after Perl Harbour attack and try to stay neutral as it can be and US concentrates all its military efforts on war with Japan. Youre thoughts ..
Not signing a declaration of war on the USA would mean Hitler had enough ink left in his pen to sign declarations of war on poverty, on intellectual ignorance, on watercolorists and internet trolls.

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