If Israel was established in the 1930s, would they have had diplomatic relations with Germany?

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If Israel was established in the 1930s, would they have had diplomatic relations with Germany?

Post by ShadowWave » 30 Mar 2019 18:24

I realize the logic of this is all over the place, but if Israel was somehow established in 1938 or so, would Nazi Germany have recognized them diplomatically, and vice versa?

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wm
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Re: If Israel was established in the 1930s, would they have had diplomatic relations with Germany?

Post by wm » 30 Mar 2019 18:59

The Jews in Palestine maintained relations with Germany till 1939, it was called the Haavara Agreement.
So why not, some kind of diplomatic relations would be needed to continue the agreement.

And the Nazis would be overjoyed if a place capable of absorbing all German Jews cheaply (it had to be a "cheap" place, their money had no value outside Germany) could have been found.

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Re: If Israel was established in the 1930s, would they have had diplomatic relations with Germany?

Post by maltesefalcon » 30 Mar 2019 20:33

The formation of an official Jewish state was largely due to the politcal and emotional climate caused by the Holocaust. Prior to that, an Israeli state would be surrounded and isolated by Arab/Islamic rivals. They could only survive if they had friends in Europe and the New World which would offer both military and economic aid.

Prior to WW2, those pro-Israeli sentiments simply did not exist.

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Re: If Israel was established in the 1930s, would they have had diplomatic relations with Germany?

Post by wm » 30 Mar 2019 21:20

It was simply impossible Stalin supported Israel (as he did) because of any emotional climate. He wasn't an especially emotional guy after all.
Similarly, it is said Truman just needed Jewish votes.

Pre-war the problem was Palestine was populated by other people.
Later Israel solved the other-people problem by conquering some of them and expelling others.

The political and emotional climate really developed in the sixties, earlier not so much. Earlier even in Israel Holocaust survivors were treated no so great.

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Re: If Israel was established in the 1930s, would they have had diplomatic relations with Germany?

Post by maltesefalcon » 31 Mar 2019 01:01

wm wrote:
30 Mar 2019 21:20

Similarly, it is said Truman just needed Jewish votes.

Pre-war the problem was Palestine was populated by other people.
Later Israel solved the other-people problem by conquering some of them and expelling others.

(Comments clipped from above)

Truman's run for president was in 1948, not 1938, so post-war and post-Holocaust.

And Israel's military prowess was also post-war. The funds and hardware came largely from the West. But the Never-Again attitude for survival at any cost, came directly from their suffering at Nazi hands.

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Re: If Israel was established in the 1930s, would they have had diplomatic relations with Germany?

Post by Von Schadewald » 31 Mar 2019 07:56

‘A Nazi travels to Palestine’: A swastika and Star of David on one coin

https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,734 ... 24,00.html

Image

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Re: If Israel was established in the 1930s, would they have had diplomatic relations with Germany?

Post by maltesefalcon » 31 Mar 2019 09:01

One more thing. Hitler's main reason for recognizing Israel as a Jewish homeland would likely be to convince Europe's Jewish diaspora to go there.
Prior to 1939 that would only give him authority over Germany, Austria and the Sudetenland. The Jewish populations in the rest of Europe and the Soviet Union would be under no incentive to go.

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Re: If Israel was established in the 1930s, would they have had diplomatic relations with Germany?

Post by wm » 31 Mar 2019 10:08

maltesefalcon wrote:
31 Mar 2019 01:01
Truman's run for president was in 1948, not 1938, so post-war and post-Holocaust.

And Israel's military prowess was also post-war. The funds and hardware came largely from the West. But the Never-Again attitude for survival at any cost, came directly from their suffering at Nazi hands.
But please, lots of those weapons (maybe majority at the most critical point) came from Czechoslovakia - a Stalin's pawn.
Stalin and Truman were instrumental in recognizing Israel because they represented only superpowers - other countries had nothing to say in it.

The Never-Again attitude is a later invention too, after the war the majority of Jews went to the US (I think about 60 percent from Poland), a majority of Hungarian Jews stayed in Hungary. Obviously, the wealthy US, the stability of life in Hungary were better than sands of Palestine.

Even in 1938 some German Jews traveled to Palestine, took a look around and returned to Nazi Germany, for the same reason - better to have a bird in your hand rather than 100 that are flying.

Today almost as many Jews live in the US as in Israel, more lives outside Israel - this shows the Never-Again again was a mere nationalistic slogan, not reality.

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Re: If Israel was established in the 1930s, would they have had diplomatic relations with Germany?

Post by Von Schadewald » 31 Mar 2019 10:57

Last edited by Von Schadewald on 31 Mar 2019 11:22, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: If Israel was established in the 1930s, would they have had diplomatic relations with Germany?

Post by wm » 31 Mar 2019 11:21

A very interesting story, and the earlier too but Arlosoroff was killed in Tel-Aviv, most likely by Jabotinsky's henchmen, it was something totally in their (Revisionists) character.
Especially that the suspects bribed false witnesses to defend themselves.
Goebbels wouldn't be able to do that so far away from Germany, after all he would have to hide it from Hitler and other Nazi leaders too.

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Re: If Israel was established in the 1930s, would they have had diplomatic relations with Germany?

Post by wm » 31 Mar 2019 11:25

The mentioned earlier "missed opportunity":
In collaboration with the Austrian Economic Minister Hans Fisch-Boeck, Schacht devised a scheme that would enable Germany to 'export' its Jewish population without doing damage to its foreign exchange holdings. The idea was to use the wealth of Austrian and German Jewry, which was now effectively under the control of the Reich, to secure a foreign currency loan to the sum of at least 1.5 billion Reichsmarks.
This fund, to be subscribed by 'international Jewry', would permit all those physically capable of emigration to start a new life abroad. In December 1938 Schacht traveled to London to broach the scheme with Rublee.

Hitler clearly approved of Schacht's plan and Goering too seems to have taken it seriously. At the end of January Goering placed Reinhard Heydrich in charge of a central agency for Jewish emigration [...] to expedite emigration along Schacht's lines.
There seems little reason to doubt that if the Third Reich had been able to expel hundreds of thousands of Jews, whilst raising a substantial volume of foreign currency through an international loan, it would have jumped at the chance.
The fact was, however, that the 'global network of Jewish high finance' on which Schacht counted to raise the funds was a figment of the anti-Semitic imagination.
All existing schemes for buying Jews out of Germany had struggled against considerable opposition from Jewish communities both inside and outside the country.
And with the exception of the Zionist Haavara programme, no significant funding was ever forthcoming.
The Wages of Destruction by Adam Tooze

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Re: If Israel was established in the 1930s, would they have had diplomatic relations with Germany?

Post by South » 31 Mar 2019 12:07

Good morning Maltesefalcon,

Israel was established - with Great Power support - for geopolitical reasons.

It started because of geography: the Suez Canal (1869) and the RN transiting from coal to petroleum (circa 1905) involving the Arab oil fields.

Wm already mentioned it; much Israeli arms, armaments and munitions (AA&E) were from Czech.

Until independence, May '48, the Brits had their embargo in place. Truman had issued his Proclamation 2776, requiring State Department licenses for export of war materials - notably aircraft. Do note that the new Israeli state received the Czech version of the Messerschmidt. The new Israeli aviators wore flight suits with the Swat sticker on them !

The population-level political climate and socio-emotional climate were more so the product of opinion-molding apparatus such as the press, the movies, ...

Israel's "military prowess" was established prior to the 1948 independence. Ben Gurion had his procurement agents in place pre-independence (British embargo still in place). Pre Israel's IDF, there were military organizations such as Hagannah, Irgun, Stern.

Holocaust survivors during the Cold War in Israel had a major component of them living in poverty.

From their May 1948 independence until circa 1962-1967, Israel's Great Power sponsor was France. After the Algeria Avion (sp?) Agreement, France indirectly transferred sponsorship to the US. LBJ furthered the Truman Doctrine which was really about Atlantic Alliance protection of the eastern Med and Arab oil fields from others - if I may be diplomatic.

~ Bob
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Re: If Israel was established in the 1930s, would they have had diplomatic relations with Germany?

Post by maltesefalcon » 31 Mar 2019 12:32

Some good points in the posts above if the timeline were different. But the OP timeline was 1938, so I am basing my comments on that premise. At that time Truman was a senator, not a world leader.

And Czechoslovakia was still an independant nation in 1938, except of course the Sudetenland. It was not a Soviet puppet state at that time. In any case Czech arms shipments to Israel occurred 1948, not 1938.

Most of the Jewish immigration occurred after, and as a result of WWII.

Again I base my comments on the OP. If Hitler did in fact recognize a Jewish state in Palestine, it would have been unlikely to survive based on my previous comments.

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Re: If Israel was established in the 1930s, would they have had diplomatic relations with Germany?

Post by Futurist » 31 Mar 2019 22:42

ShadowWave wrote:
30 Mar 2019 18:24
I realize the logic of this is all over the place, but if Israel was somehow established in 1938 or so, would Nazi Germany have recognized them diplomatically, and vice versa?
I don't see why not. After all, the Nazis and the Zionists would have ironically had a common goal--specifically to get the Jews out of Europe and into Palestine.

The interesting question is whether this Jewish state will declare war on Nazi Germany along with Britain and France or whether it would remain neutral due to a belief that neutrality would be the best course of action in regards to saving as many European Jews as possible (and, of course, getting them to Palestine).

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Re: If Israel was established in the 1930s, would they have had diplomatic relations with Germany?

Post by maltesefalcon » 01 Apr 2019 03:40

Assuming Israel had the will to attack Germany, what would they attack with?

France, Britain, USA, etc were re-arming themselves as fast as they could at that time. There would be nothing to spare to send to Israel. Just as importantly, whatever meagre forces could be scraped up would be needed to defend against almost certain attack by neighbouring Arab nations.

Even if by some long shot Israel sent an Expeditionary Force they would have no navy to protect the transport convoys in the Mediterranean from Axis attacks. Frankly it would have been quite simple for German or Italian subs to operate off the Israeli coast and mount an effective blockade.

So an Israeli declaration of war even as a token gesture would be quite pointless.

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