If Israel was established in the 1930s, would they have had diplomatic relations with Germany?

Discussions on alternate history, including events up to 20 years before today. Hosted by Terry Duncan.
Futurist
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Re: If Israel was established in the 1930s, would they have had diplomatic relations with Germany?

Post by Futurist » 01 Apr 2019 06:57

Makes sense.

BTW, this would also rule out the possibility of Israel attempting to assassinate Nazis in the event that the Nazis begin murdering Jews, correct?

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wm
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Re: If Israel was established in the 1930s, would they have had diplomatic relations with Germany?

Post by wm » 01 Apr 2019 11:48

Please " assassinate Nazis" is a Captain America/Batman thing. :)

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Re: If Israel was established in the 1930s, would they have had diplomatic relations with Germany?

Post by maltesefalcon » 01 Apr 2019 14:23

Futurist wrote:
01 Apr 2019 06:57
Makes sense.

BTW, this would also rule out the possibility of Israel attempting to assassinate Nazis in the event that the Nazis begin murdering Jews, correct?
There were a number of emigres from Czechoslovakia, Poland, Denmark, Holland, France, Norway acting as agents in Europe for the Allies. In fact a cell from Czechoslovakia assassinated Heydrich. There would be no reason to preclude "Israelis" from this activity, especially if they had European roots and connections to blend in. (By this I mean Jewish agents from the geographic Middle East, not citizens of a formal Jewish state. I still believe such a country could not exist before the war.)

And the lack of a formal war declaration would not be a factor. For instance some US citizens joined up to fight Hitler prior to 12/7/41 by going to Canada.

That being said, "killing the killers" (a la Dexter) would be an arduous task as there were thousands and thousands of them.

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wm
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Re: If Israel was established in the 1930s, would they have had diplomatic relations with Germany?

Post by wm » 01 Apr 2019 15:22

The Czechs paid for the assassination (which changed nothing actually and only forced the Czechs deeper into collaboration) with lives of 340 their own civilians.

When Icchok Malmed threw acid on an SS-man in Białystok, the Germans killed one hundred men, women, and children on the spot, and issued an ultimatum for him to surrender or 40 thousand Jews would be executed.

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Re: If Israel was established in the 1930s, would they have had diplomatic relations with Germany?

Post by South » 01 Apr 2019 15:27

Good morning Maltesefalcon,

It's somewhat of a technicality,...

It wasn't armed nor naval vessels but the pre-state Israel did have a disguised transport fleet for their secret immigration to defeat the British prohibition.

If circumstances dictated such, eg earlier statehood and funding available from the Allies, a fleet of rust buckets could be armed.

See: "The Jews Secret Fleet" by Joseph M. Hochstein, Gefen Press, 1987.


~ Bob

eastern Virginia, USA

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Re: If Israel was established in the 1930s, would they have had diplomatic relations with Germany?

Post by maltesefalcon » 01 Apr 2019 17:11

South wrote:
01 Apr 2019 15:27
Good morning Maltesefalcon,

It's somewhat of a technicality,...

It wasn't armed nor naval vessels but the pre-state Israel did have a disguised transport fleet for their secret immigration to defeat the British prohibition.

If circumstances dictated such, eg earlier statehood and funding available from the Allies, a fleet of rust buckets could be armed.

See: "The Jews Secret Fleet" by Joseph M. Hochstein, Gefen Press, 1987.


~ Bob

eastern Virginia, USA
Agreed but sending a fleet of ships in peace time means they only need to run the blockade once and near/in waters for the nascent state. And unlike the Axis, would the British risk the outcry by sinking all of the vessels in a direct naval engagement?

Doing so in war time is infinitely more difficult. It means avoiding detection and interception by Italian or German aircraft and subs at many points in the Mediterranean. The Axis could also mine the debarkation harbours. Then there is the minor point of where to disembark. They could possibly attack through Italy and Austria, then hope to have some troops and supplies left in the unlikely event they actually reach Germany.

Or they could thread the needle at Gibraltar and sail through the Channel to who knows where?

I would accept a few agents at a time getting to their destination undetected and unharmed. An armed force worthy of the name is a different matter, especially when you consider that eventually they need to be resupplied, reinforced or recovered.

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Re: If Israel was established in the 1930s, would they have had diplomatic relations with Germany?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 02 Apr 2019 06:22

If I recall correctly, Adolf Eichmann and his SD boss very briefly visited Israel in 1937 and met at least one Jewish leader, so informal relations already existed to some slight degree. However, Eichmann was reportedly not impressed by Palestine as a destination for Germany's Jews.

In 1938 the USA had no particular interest in Israel and it was its intervention that was decisive in Israel's creation in 1948, so I think the premise of the thread is highly unlikely.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: If Israel was established in the 1930s, would they have had diplomatic relations with Germany?

Post by Von Schadewald » 04 Apr 2019 12:19

When exactly did Hitler resolve to change his Madagascar Deportation Plan to outright genocide of Jewry and why?

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wm
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Re: If Israel was established in the 1930s, would they have had diplomatic relations with Germany?

Post by wm » 04 Apr 2019 20:46

Hitler maybe never even heard about the Madagascar Plan, it was just one of many plans, some successful some not.

He ordered the Holocaust during the battle of Moscow when all hope of quick victory was lost. The desperate situation required desperate measures, and the Holocaust was one of them, it was an effort to streamline the wartime economy by getting rid of useless people - a dead weight on the war efforts, of people the Nazis believed to be dangerous and a threat.

Earlier he killed 300,000 of his own "defective" people and millions of Soviet POWs, the Jews were just the next in line. By that time the Nazis had enough experience, they knew it could be done. By that time they killed enough innocent people that a few million more didn't matter.

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Re: If Israel was established in the 1930s, would they have had diplomatic relations with Germany?

Post by maltesefalcon » 05 Apr 2019 01:47

Von Schadewald wrote:
04 Apr 2019 12:19
When exactly did Hitler resolve to change his Madagascar Deportation Plan to outright genocide of Jewry and why?
It was more like a pipe dream than a plan. Assuming the island could support millions of European immigrants, (which it could not) the main issue was transport.

By the time any real consideration was given, the Reich was at war with UK and shipping was too valuable to risk on the venture.

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Re: If Israel was established in the 1930s, would they have had diplomatic relations with Germany?

Post by Terry Duncan » 11 Apr 2019 14:35

To be fair, there is no reason Nazi Germany would not have relations (albeit not likely very friendly) with a Jewish state if one emerged, they did have the Haavara Agreement from 1933-1939, and as mentioned the Madagascar Plan after the fall of France in 1940 - the rather difficult question of how to access Madagascar while Britain was still hostile was insurmountable though. Any plan that removed Jews from Europe is likely to find at least some support, though obviously as soon as the Nazi invasion of the USSR began the numbers rise massively. From the Jewish point of view, they had been buying land in Palestine for some years by the 1930s so it is not impossible some form of proto-state could emerge as well as conflict with the local Arab population.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan

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