How would the Holocaust have been remembered with a death toll of 1-2 million Jews instead of 6 million Jews?

Discussions on alternate history, including events up to 20 years before today. Hosted by Terry Duncan.
User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 4675
Joined: 29 Dec 2006 20:11
Location: Poland

Re: How would the Holocaust have been remembered with a death toll of 1-2 million Jews instead of 6 million Jews?

Post by wm » 25 May 2019 20:16

I've read Mein Kampf, some of its part many times, but I don't believe physical destruction of Jews is there.

As late as 1940 Himmler wrote to Hitler:
I hope that the concept of Jews will be completely extinguished through the possibility of large-scale emigration of all Jews to Africa or some other colony.

...Cruel and tragic as every individual case may be, this method is the mildest and best if, out of inner conviction, we reject the Bolshevist method of physical destruction of a people as un-Germanic and impossible.

Pavel Novak
Member
Posts: 245
Joined: 20 Mar 2005 21:36
Location: Czech Republic

Re: How would the Holocaust have been remembered with a death toll of 1-2 million Jews instead of 6 million Jews?

Post by Pavel Novak » 27 May 2019 09:20

I remember for sure that he was critisizing idea of Jewish state and make long comparison of Jews as completely different from all other nations and cultures.

I have checked it quickly and there's that rant in chapter about World War that it was opportunity to eliminate this "issue" but it is not clearly defined if he meant all Jews or just their "leaders".

User avatar
Gorque
Member
Posts: 959
Joined: 11 Feb 2009 18:20
Location: Clocktown

Re: How would the Holocaust have been remembered with a death toll of 1-2 million Jews instead of 6 million Jews?

Post by Gorque » 27 May 2019 11:45

Futurist wrote:
24 May 2019 23:30
Gorque wrote:
24 May 2019 13:58
A second item to consider has to do with the neutrality of the United States. At that point in time, the German government was attempting to keep the United States out of the conflict and any extra-judicial murders of Jews under German governance would have had the reverse effect from what they were hoping to accomplish.
That's a good point--though please keep in mind that if it looks like Germany might lose the war in any case, then from a demented Nazi point-of-view, it might be "best" to deal as damaging of a blow to "International Jewry" as possible even if this will increase the odds of the US entering the war.

Also, as a side note, the mass Nazi murders of Soviet Jews in late 1941 didn't cause the US to enter the war; if it wasn't for Pearl Harbor, the US would have remained neutral even longer even though around one million Soviet Jews had already been murdered by the end of 1941. :(
The U.S. was aware of the massacres at Babi Yar and Rumbula as well as the actions by the Einsatzgruppen by late 41? Are you sure about that?

User avatar
Gorque
Member
Posts: 959
Joined: 11 Feb 2009 18:20
Location: Clocktown

Re: How would the Holocaust have been remembered with a death toll of 1-2 million Jews instead of 6 million Jews?

Post by Gorque » 27 May 2019 11:49

Futurist wrote:
24 May 2019 23:28
Gorque wrote:
24 May 2019 13:46
Futurist wrote:
21 May 2019 23:07
How would the Holocaust have been remembered with a death toll of 1-2 million Jews instead of 6 million Jews?

This scenario could come about if there is no Fall of France and thus the number of Jews under Nazi rule is halved in comparison to real life (since there's no Operation Barbarossa and also no Nazi occupation of Greater Hungary in this scenario). Once it becomes clear that Germany can't achieve a decisive breakthrough in the West, the Nazis proceed to murder as much Jews under their rule as they can before they are overthrown either in an internal coup or by the Anglo-French as they advance onto Berlin.

Any thoughts on this?

Prior to armed hostilities, the German government was encouraging the emigration of Jews. The de jure and de facto annexations of western Polish lands as well as the administration of the General Government was a major step backwards in achieving a Germany that had no Jews in it.

However, emigration was still possible at the time as the Eastern frontier was still open as it was likewise towards the South-West; Romania, Yugoslavia, Greece, during the aforementioned time-frame. I won't speculate as to whether it was possible at that point in time for them to expel over two million people, especially considering the woeful global economics then present, as well as the proven lack of desire of other nations (Evian Conference) to host the expellees.
The problem is, though, that even if there was some place in Europe to expel the Jews, if the Nazis will lose the war, the expelled Jews could simply return to their homelands after the end of the war.

Why would the Jews want to return to Germany? Their status, per the recent laws, were as second class citizens and an entire generation had been Nazified against them.

User avatar
Gorque
Member
Posts: 959
Joined: 11 Feb 2009 18:20
Location: Clocktown

Re: How would the Holocaust have been remembered with a death toll of 1-2 million Jews instead of 6 million Jews?

Post by Gorque » 27 May 2019 11:51

Pavel Novak wrote:
27 May 2019 09:20
I remember for sure that he was critisizing idea of Jewish state and make long comparison of Jews as completely different from all other nations and cultures.

I have checked it quickly and there's that rant in chapter about World War that it was opportunity to eliminate this "issue" but it is not clearly defined if he meant all Jews or just their "leaders".
Would you be so kind as to cite that portion of Mein Kampf for us. :)

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 4675
Joined: 29 Dec 2006 20:11
Location: Poland

Re: How would the Holocaust have been remembered with a death toll of 1-2 million Jews instead of 6 million Jews?

Post by wm » 27 May 2019 13:28

Pavel Novak wrote:
27 May 2019 09:20
I remember for sure that he was critisizing idea of Jewish state and make long comparison of Jews as completely different from all other nations and cultures.
I think he criticizes the Jews, not the state - the Jewish state is only mentioned in passing as irrelevant.

Pavel Novak
Member
Posts: 245
Joined: 20 Mar 2005 21:36
Location: Czech Republic

Re: How would the Holocaust have been remembered with a death toll of 1-2 million Jews instead of 6 million Jews?

Post by Pavel Novak » 29 May 2019 09:38

Gorque wrote:
27 May 2019 11:51
Pavel Novak wrote:
27 May 2019 09:20
I remember for sure that he was critisizing idea of Jewish state and make long comparison of Jews as completely different from all other nations and cultures.

I have checked it quickly and there's that rant in chapter about World War that it was opportunity to eliminate this "issue" but it is not clearly defined if he meant all Jews or just their "leaders".
Would you be so kind as to cite that portion of Mein Kampf for us. :)
Do you mean part from "World War" chapter about the "opportunity" or about possibility of Jewish state? Hitler's book is hard to read as it is no scientific work and some of his rants here can be understand in different ways.

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 6546
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 11:19

Re: How would the Holocaust have been remembered with a death toll of 1-2 million Jews instead of 6 million Jews?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 29 May 2019 11:12

Hi Futrurist,

You set the parameters of 1-2 million. This was about 20% of Europe's Jews.

Cheers,

Sid.

User avatar
Gorque
Member
Posts: 959
Joined: 11 Feb 2009 18:20
Location: Clocktown

Re: How would the Holocaust have been remembered with a death toll of 1-2 million Jews instead of 6 million Jews?

Post by Gorque » 29 May 2019 13:33

Pavel Novak wrote:
29 May 2019 09:38
Gorque wrote:
27 May 2019 11:51
Pavel Novak wrote:
27 May 2019 09:20
I remember for sure that he was critisizing idea of Jewish state and make long comparison of Jews as completely different from all other nations and cultures.

I have checked it quickly and there's that rant in chapter about World War that it was opportunity to eliminate this "issue" but it is not clearly defined if he meant all Jews or just their "leaders".
Would you be so kind as to cite that portion of Mein Kampf for us. :)
Do you mean part from "World War" chapter about the "opportunity" or about possibility of Jewish state? Hitler's book is hard to read as it is no scientific work and some of his rants here can be understand in different ways.
Hi Pavel:

I was referring to the "World War" rant; And I agree, it is difficult to understand at times. He is quite good at describing himself many times as a "genius." :D

Futurist
Member
Posts: 1314
Joined: 24 Dec 2015 00:02
Location: SoCal

Re: How would the Holocaust have been remembered with a death toll of 1-2 million Jews instead of 6 million Jews?

Post by Futurist » 13 Jun 2019 22:28

Sid Guttridge wrote:
29 May 2019 11:12
Hi Futrurist,

You set the parameters of 1-2 million. This was about 20% of Europe's Jews.

Cheers,

Sid.
Yes, for the total European Jewish population, it would be about 20%. However, the figures for, say, Hungary and Romania are going to be 0% in this scenario while the figures for German, Polish, Czech, and perhaps Slovak and/or Dutch Jews are probably going to be much higher than 20%.

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 6546
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 11:19

Re: How would the Holocaust have been remembered with a death toll of 1-2 million Jews instead of 6 million Jews?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 15 Jun 2019 11:55

Hi Futurist,

The figures for Romania and Hungary were not necessarily going to be 0%. Most of the Jewish population of Basarabia died in Romanian-administered Transnistria in 1941-42 and most of the Jewish population of Northern Transilvania (then Hungarian administered) were deported to the extermination camps.

I think it would help if you could be more specific about your scenario.

For example, having started the genocide, why would the Germans stop at 1-2 million? What was the proposed brake? Why the cut off?

Have you in mind some mechanism or influence that plausibly leads the Germans to stop the mass murder early?

Cheers,

Sid.

Futurist
Member
Posts: 1314
Joined: 24 Dec 2015 00:02
Location: SoCal

Re: How would the Holocaust have been remembered with a death toll of 1-2 million Jews instead of 6 million Jews?

Post by Futurist » 16 Jun 2019 03:25

Romania won't enter the war at all without the Fall of France, though. Romania was pro-Allied until the Fall of France. Also, without the Fall of France, there is not going to be an Operation Barbarossa (I doubt that Nazi Germany would actually have the necessary troops for this, and it would probably be suicidal to even try if you've got an undefeated France threatening you in your rear)--which would in turn mean that both Romania and Hungary are going to remain neutral for the duration of World War II in this scenario. (Of course, very late in the war, Britain and France could declare war on military pipsqueak Hungary in order to force it to return the territories that it took from Czechoslovakia in 1938-1939, but this would be when Germany would already be on the verge of defeat.)

If France doesn't fall in 1940, then Nazi Germany is going to have two or three times less Jews under its control than it had in real life. The remaining Jews are going to be in the Soviet Union, Hungary, and Romania--and Nazi Germany won't be able to touch any of these countries while it is still fighting Britain and France. Also, it's going to depend on just how many Jews under their control the Nazis are going to be able to kill before they are removed from power either as a result of internal opponents launching a coup or as a result of Anglo-French troops marching onto Berlin--whichever of these happens first, that is. (Even if the new German government will decide to continue the war to get better peace terms, it would be highly unlikely to continue the Holocaust, IMHO.)

Futurist
Member
Posts: 1314
Joined: 24 Dec 2015 00:02
Location: SoCal

Re: How would the Holocaust have been remembered with a death toll of 1-2 million Jews instead of 6 million Jews?

Post by Futurist » 16 Jun 2019 03:28

Gorque wrote:
27 May 2019 11:49
Futurist wrote:
24 May 2019 23:28
Gorque wrote:
24 May 2019 13:46
Futurist wrote:
21 May 2019 23:07
How would the Holocaust have been remembered with a death toll of 1-2 million Jews instead of 6 million Jews?

This scenario could come about if there is no Fall of France and thus the number of Jews under Nazi rule is halved in comparison to real life (since there's no Operation Barbarossa and also no Nazi occupation of Greater Hungary in this scenario). Once it becomes clear that Germany can't achieve a decisive breakthrough in the West, the Nazis proceed to murder as much Jews under their rule as they can before they are overthrown either in an internal coup or by the Anglo-French as they advance onto Berlin.

Any thoughts on this?

Prior to armed hostilities, the German government was encouraging the emigration of Jews. The de jure and de facto annexations of western Polish lands as well as the administration of the General Government was a major step backwards in achieving a Germany that had no Jews in it.

However, emigration was still possible at the time as the Eastern frontier was still open as it was likewise towards the South-West; Romania, Yugoslavia, Greece, during the aforementioned time-frame. I won't speculate as to whether it was possible at that point in time for them to expel over two million people, especially considering the woeful global economics then present, as well as the proven lack of desire of other nations (Evian Conference) to host the expellees.
The problem is, though, that even if there was some place in Europe to expel the Jews, if the Nazis will lose the war, the expelled Jews could simply return to their homelands after the end of the war.

Why would the Jews want to return to Germany? Their status, per the recent laws, were as second class citizens and an entire generation had been Nazified against them.
Even if returning to Germany is going to be unacceptable (even if Germany will be forced to repeal the Nuremberg Laws by the victorious Anglo-French if they will win the war), there would still be the possibility of Jews returning to countries such as Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, and Norway after the end of the war if they will survive the war and if the Anglo-French will win the war.

Futurist
Member
Posts: 1314
Joined: 24 Dec 2015 00:02
Location: SoCal

Re: How would the Holocaust have been remembered with a death toll of 1-2 million Jews instead of 6 million Jews?

Post by Futurist » 16 Jun 2019 03:31

wm wrote:
25 May 2019 20:16
I've read Mein Kampf, some of its part many times, but I don't believe physical destruction of Jews is there.

As late as 1940 Himmler wrote to Hitler:
I hope that the concept of Jews will be completely extinguished through the possibility of large-scale emigration of all Jews to Africa or some other colony.

...Cruel and tragic as every individual case may be, this method is the mildest and best if, out of inner conviction, we reject the Bolshevist method of physical destruction of a people as un-Germanic and impossible.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/hi ... s-and-jews

It's not quite clear if, in that last paragraph, Himmler is talking only about Slavs or about Jews as well. Anyway, though, even if Himmler would have also been talking about Jews in that last paragraph, there would still be the question of where exactly the Jews under Nazi Germany's control were going to be deported. The Nazis are undoubtedly going to want the Jews out of all of the territories under their control, but which countries are actually going to accept such a large number of Jews? Even without the Fall of France, the Nazis are going to have 2-3 million Jews under their control.

User avatar
pacifritz
Member
Posts: 123
Joined: 07 Jul 2011 20:41

Re: How would the Holocaust have been remembered with a death toll of 1-2 million Jews instead of 6 million Jews?

Post by pacifritz » 29 Jun 2019 16:49

If the death toll of occupied European Jewry had 'only' peaked at 1-2 Million , but the same inhuman methods had been in place to reaach this number, the Nazi Regime would still be synonymous with evil by most of the civilized World.

True, the higher the numbers of victims killed in these atrocities gets more 'abstract' and difficult to relate to [we are all more used to mentally processing individual killings , or at worst, multiple homicides in killing sprees , as seen on contemporary news reports] , I think it is more the mindset of the perpetrators [that they ever seriously concieved this at all, let alone acted upon it] that singles out the Holocaust as the Worst Atrocit[ies] of the Modern Age.

Return to “What if”