could the IJN beat the kriegsmarine?
-
- Member
- Posts: 368
- Joined: 12 Aug 2018, 01:31
- Location: france,alsace
could the IJN beat the kriegsmarine?
Personally I think yes,simply by using carrier and if the 2 yamato were here,I don't think that the 2 bismarck class battleship would have a chance to win https://www.reddit.com/r/ShitWehraboosS ... y_blowout/
-
- Member
- Posts: 2047
- Joined: 03 Sep 2003, 19:15
- Location: Canada
Re: could the IJN beat the kriegsmarine?
Naval capability involves more than just weight of iron available. Where would the engagements take place? And why-what was the cause of the war?
If the battles took place in the PTO, Germany would be at a huge disadvantage. They would have little to no refueling or supply stations to draw from in that area.
Japan would have the same issue in the Atlantic.
Where do the other great naval powers fit in? Are they at war with one or both?
A pretty vague what if, frankly...
If the battles took place in the PTO, Germany would be at a huge disadvantage. They would have little to no refueling or supply stations to draw from in that area.
Japan would have the same issue in the Atlantic.
Where do the other great naval powers fit in? Are they at war with one or both?
A pretty vague what if, frankly...
-
- Member
- Posts: 368
- Joined: 12 Aug 2018, 01:31
- Location: france,alsace
Re: could the IJN beat the kriegsmarine?
my what if scenario is just "the ijn fight the kriegsmarine,who would win?" and that's it,
I still think they could've manage to deafeat the kriegsmarine thanks to their carrier (I don't count unachevied vessel in my what if fight,thought a yamato could I think take down a H-39 class battleship).
I still think they could've manage to deafeat the kriegsmarine thanks to their carrier (I don't count unachevied vessel in my what if fight,thought a yamato could I think take down a H-39 class battleship).
- T. A. Gardner
- Member
- Posts: 3568
- Joined: 02 Feb 2006, 01:23
- Location: Arizona
Re: could the IJN beat the kriegsmarine?
The Kido Butai (eg., the Japanese fleet carriers all 6 of them in say 1940) would absolutely cream the KM on their own. The Germans have nothing to fight carriers with. Even if the Germans finish the Graf Zeppelin, it has such a weak and small air wing aboard it would be overwhelmed. The largest strike it can launch thanks to its insane catapult system is 16 planes. The Japanese would overwhelm them.
- TheMarcksPlan
- Banned
- Posts: 3255
- Joined: 15 Jan 2019, 23:32
- Location: USA
Re: could the IJN beat the kriegsmarine?
The IJN were the early-war masters of carrier ops; it took the USN a couple years to catch up. If the KM and IJN meet up somewhere neutral re logistics and no shore-based aircraft, there's a chance the IJN doesn't lose a single man. Probably the Germans shoot down a couple via Flak but that's it. If the KM somehow closes to surface engagement range they eat dozens of Long Lance torpedoes. IJN could leave its battle line home and still win overwhelmingly.
https://twitter.com/themarcksplan
https://www.reddit.com/r/AxisHistoryForum/
https://medium.com/counterfactualww2
"The whole question of whether we win or lose the war depends on the Russians." - FDR, June 1942
https://www.reddit.com/r/AxisHistoryForum/
https://medium.com/counterfactualww2
"The whole question of whether we win or lose the war depends on the Russians." - FDR, June 1942
-
- Member
- Posts: 2047
- Joined: 03 Sep 2003, 19:15
- Location: Canada
Re: could the IJN beat the kriegsmarine?
I will reiterate that this "what if?" is so lacking in detail that is virtually asinine.
To wit:
OP mentions "the IJN" vs "the kriegsmarine". What...all of it? On both sides?
What portion of each navy is committed to this battle? No nation would use their entire naval inventory to seek out and engage the enemy. (Who, coincidentally are using all of theirs as well...lol)
The DKM especially had varying strengths throughout the period ending Dec 1942. So we need to know the time period being discussed. It is worth mentioning that UBoats would struggle to operate in territorial waters now occupied by Japanese forces. They did not have the range to embark from France and operate in the Pacific without a friendly harbour to refuel and provision. Unlke IRL, there would be no safe havens for any DKM shipping in the Indian or Pacific Oceans.
Also the circumstances. What led the two nations to fight each other? In particular, the DKM would need an overwhelming reason to fight a carrier-based war for which it was never designed.
And finally I will re-ask...where are the other naval powers in all of this? Especially Russia, as they may end up with two enemy navies on their back porch.
Without some context, anyone can make up pretty well any outcome and not really be wrong.
To wit:
OP mentions "the IJN" vs "the kriegsmarine". What...all of it? On both sides?
What portion of each navy is committed to this battle? No nation would use their entire naval inventory to seek out and engage the enemy. (Who, coincidentally are using all of theirs as well...lol)
The DKM especially had varying strengths throughout the period ending Dec 1942. So we need to know the time period being discussed. It is worth mentioning that UBoats would struggle to operate in territorial waters now occupied by Japanese forces. They did not have the range to embark from France and operate in the Pacific without a friendly harbour to refuel and provision. Unlke IRL, there would be no safe havens for any DKM shipping in the Indian or Pacific Oceans.
Also the circumstances. What led the two nations to fight each other? In particular, the DKM would need an overwhelming reason to fight a carrier-based war for which it was never designed.
And finally I will re-ask...where are the other naval powers in all of this? Especially Russia, as they may end up with two enemy navies on their back porch.
Without some context, anyone can make up pretty well any outcome and not really be wrong.
- Robert Rojas
- In memoriam
- Posts: 2658
- Joined: 19 Nov 2002, 05:29
- Location: Pleasant Hill, California - U.S.A.
- Contact:
RE: Could The I.J.N. Defeat The D.K.M.?
Greetings to both citizen Aurelien Wolff and the community as a whole. Howdy Aurelien! Well monsieur, in reference to your introductory posting of Monday - August 05, 2019 - 4:53am, old yours truly must join the clarion chorus of your critics about the technical and geopolitical implausibility of your suggested naval gambit between the I.J.N. and the D.K.M. By some odd quirk of fate, what has happened to the British Empire / Commonwealth, the United States of America, and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics? Of equal importance what is the status of Fascist Italy and Vichy France? Other than the ongoing passion play that is Nationalist China, what would be the point OR points-of-fiction that would potentially drive both Berlin and Tokyo into open conflict? Actually, I could have a great deal of fun with this ersatz creation of yours, but it's your job to establish the back drop to your maritime clash of arms. Sound like a plan!? Well, that's my initial two Yankee cents worth on this stillborn saga - for now anyway. In any case, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day over in your corner of the land of the Franks. Au Revoir!
Best Regards,
Uncle Bob
Best Regards,
Uncle Bob
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee
Re: could the IJN beat the kriegsmarine?
The IJN were early war masters of carrier ops?TheMarcksPlan wrote: ↑06 Aug 2019, 04:49The IJN were the early-war masters of carrier ops; it took the USN a couple years to catch up. If the KM and IJN meet up somewhere neutral re logistics and no shore-based aircraft, there's a chance the IJN doesn't lose a single man. Probably the Germans shoot down a couple via Flak but that's it. If the KM somehow closes to surface engagement range they eat dozens of Long Lance torpedoes. IJN could leave its battle line home and still win overwhelmingly.
Curious...as the Japanese lost 6 carriers to the US 4. IJNAF also lost a large number of aircraft and pilots - Zuikaku's air group was devastated at Coral Sea, although the carrier suffered no damage.
Sinceb this battle is taking place in a vacuum, the KM could leave it's battle fleet at home, and destroy the IJN with her U-Boats alone - Japanese ASW was notoriously poor, and their carriers were quite ineffective against submarines. The only saving grace was that US torpedoes were even worse. Whereas, by the end of 1941, the Germans had mostly fixed their torps.
-
- Member
- Posts: 2047
- Joined: 03 Sep 2003, 19:15
- Location: Canada
Re: could the IJN beat the kriegsmarine?
The UBoat force was obviously concieved pre-war but the size and scope of production/operation was a reactionary tactic.
By this I mean Doenitz pressured for increased numbers and better designs when it became obvious they could not compete with US/Anglo surface forces on anything like equal terms. This took time and experience so it is unlikely there would be enough of a force to take on the bulk of the fight vs the IJN. Not for some time at least. (I am assuming here that Germany was not at war with anyone else or the whole adventure would be suicidal)
Not only that, the type IX would be needed in quantity. The type VII would not have the range to operate in waters that would threaten Japanese shipping routes. Even then they would have no bases. Even the type IXs that were used in the Pacific IRL had friendly harbors in which to do r and r.
IRL, the Navy's US sub force in particular, did great damage to both Japanese naval and cargo marine tonnage. However this was made easier due to there being some Pacific operational bases. Not only that the surface fleets at least occupied some Japanese attention, as well as providing protection to those bases. Finally land based and carrier craft provided at least some intelligence as to the whereabouts of possible threats/targets.
None of these capabilities would be available to a UBoat force sent out on their own.
By this I mean Doenitz pressured for increased numbers and better designs when it became obvious they could not compete with US/Anglo surface forces on anything like equal terms. This took time and experience so it is unlikely there would be enough of a force to take on the bulk of the fight vs the IJN. Not for some time at least. (I am assuming here that Germany was not at war with anyone else or the whole adventure would be suicidal)
Not only that, the type IX would be needed in quantity. The type VII would not have the range to operate in waters that would threaten Japanese shipping routes. Even then they would have no bases. Even the type IXs that were used in the Pacific IRL had friendly harbors in which to do r and r.
IRL, the Navy's US sub force in particular, did great damage to both Japanese naval and cargo marine tonnage. However this was made easier due to there being some Pacific operational bases. Not only that the surface fleets at least occupied some Japanese attention, as well as providing protection to those bases. Finally land based and carrier craft provided at least some intelligence as to the whereabouts of possible threats/targets.
None of these capabilities would be available to a UBoat force sent out on their own.
Re: could the IJN beat the kriegsmarine?
As I said earlier this battle is taking place in a vacuum. Nothing has so far been provided as to a backstory for the battle taking place. Thus it is lining the ships up and letting them duke it out. Also, there is no time line with the exception that Z Plan ships are excluded, and the Yamatos are possibly included. Thus, a late 41 or early 42 timeframe.
Doenitz did not become CINC until January, 1943.
The US sub force did do a vast amount of damage to the Japanese, but that mostly did not occur until 1944-45, after the torpedo problems were fixed. Further, US land-based and carrier-based a/c provided little actionable intel, as the could not penetrate that far into Japanese territory. Most actionable intel came from ULTRA.
Doenitz did not become CINC until January, 1943.
The US sub force did do a vast amount of damage to the Japanese, but that mostly did not occur until 1944-45, after the torpedo problems were fixed. Further, US land-based and carrier-based a/c provided little actionable intel, as the could not penetrate that far into Japanese territory. Most actionable intel came from ULTRA.
-
- Member
- Posts: 816
- Joined: 22 Jan 2014, 04:16
Re: RE: Could The I.J.N. Defeat The D.K.M.?
IF Germany had pursued cooperation with Nationalist China beyond the historical ties, there were u-boats and small attack craft scheduled to be delivered.Robert Rojas wrote: ↑14 Aug 2019, 08:58... old yours truly must join the clarion chorus of your critics about the technical and geopolitical implausibility of your suggested naval gambit between the I.J.N. and the D.K.M. By some odd quirk of fate, what has happened to the British Empire / Commonwealth, the United States of America, and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics? Of equal importance what is the status of Fascist Italy and Vichy France? Other than the ongoing passion play that is Nationalist China, what would be the point OR points-of-fiction that would potentially drive both Berlin and Tokyo into open conflict?
an interesting scenario of asymmetrical warfare
Re: could the IJN beat the kriegsmarine?
2 Type IIB coastal submarines + some small craft would hardly justify sending the entire Kriegsmarine. Further, given Japanese control of all major Chinese ports, would leave nowhere for the KM to refuel, rearm, and repair. I doubt that France or Britain would allow the German use of their ports in the area.
- Robert Rojas
- In memoriam
- Posts: 2658
- Joined: 19 Nov 2002, 05:29
- Location: Pleasant Hill, California - U.S.A.
- Contact:
RE: Could the I.J.N. Defeat The D.K.M.?
Greetings to both brother Takao-san and the commuity as a whole. Howdy Kazumasa! Well sir, in deference to your point OR points-of-view as articulated within your respective postings of Wednesday - August 14, 2019 - 5:43pm and Thursday - August 15, 2019 - 6:15pm, old yours truly will foolishly go out on a limb and attempt to interject a bit of "backstory" into Aurelien Wolff's threadbare "creation". Now, after the Armistice of Compiegne of June 22, 1940, Adolf Hitler will be uncharacteristically magnanimous with the now prostrated nation of France. All of France's prisoners-of-war will be released, the Organization Todt will be more than amply busy attempting to repair the war damage inflicted upon metropolitan France AND the successor government of the Third Republic will be allowed, if not proactively encouraged, to maintain its overseas empire. That successor government will be that of the newly christened STATE OF FRANCE on July 10, 1940 with General Henri-Philippe Petain as its Chief-of-State. After the creation of Vichy France, Adolf Hitler will shift his attention to the festering issue of Great Britain. On July 19, 1940, Der Führer will make his "APPEAL TO REASON" to the government of Prime Minister Earl Wood (Lord Halifax). With Adolf Hitler's "guaranty" of Great Britain's continued independence ALONG with Great Britain's continued retention of its vast overseas empire, Prime Minister Earl Wood will cravenly lunge at the opportunity to sign its own armistice with National Socialist Germany , Fascist Italy and Vichy France. President Franklin Roosevelt will breath a sigh of relief knowing that the United States of America will "NOT" be drawn into yet another conflict in Europe. NOW, HERE'S THE RUB! The Imperial Japanese Empire is now making ominous noises about FRENCH INDOCHINA and the possessions that FRANCE retains across the broad expanse of greater OCEANIA. With Adolf Hitler still smarting over the not so inconsequential matter of Nationalist China, Der Führer will not brook any extraterritorial move against FRENCH INDOCHINA or its Pacific possessions by his "partners in crime" in Tokyo. As a codicil of Great Britain's armistice with National Socialist Germany, Fascist Italy and Vichy France was the granting of the unfettered transiting access through the Straits of Gibraltar AND the SUEZ CANAL by the D.K.M., the Regia Marina and the Marine Nationale. With FRANCE still holding French Somaliland (today's Dijibouti) and hence the maritime gatekeepers of the entrance to the Red Sea at the Straits of Bab el Mandeb. In addition to this, FRANCE is still in possession of the Island of Madagascar and a number of smaller islands in the Indian Ocean. With Fascist Italy still in control of Italian Somaliland (today's Ethiopia - Eretria - Somalia) will collectively provide port and aviation facilities to the D.K.M., the Regia Marina and the Marine Nationale at such exotic locales as Berbera, Bossaso, Kismayo and Mogadishu. In addition, Luftwaffe Focke-Wulf 200 Long Range Reconnaissance Aircraft will be actively patrolling over the Indian Ocean keeping a very wary eye on the approaches to the horn of Africa. Eventually, this mission will be taken over by the Regia Aeronautica with its own Piaggio P.108A Bombardiere long Range Reconnaissance Aircraft. Finally, we have that bit of geography called Madagascar. Apart from being Adolf Hitler's repository for the Jews of Western and Central Europe, the East Coast ports of Diego Suarez, Iharana, Antalha, Maroantsetia, Manakara and Tolagna will be available to the D.K.M. should push come to shove with the I.J.N. In addition, Luftwaffe Focke-Wulf 200 Long Range Reconnaissance Aircraft will be ranging out from the islands of Reunion and Mauritius should the I.J.N. head in that direction. Needless to say, the German / Franco installations on Madagascar, Reunion and Mauritius will be bolstered by Luftwaffe Fighter Squadrons, Radar Sites and the usual panoply of Flak Units. I'll leave the whole sordid business of the inevitable Anglo/American conflict in the Pacific with the Imperial Japanese Empire for another day. Well, that's my latest two cents worth on this expansive topic of interest - for now anyway. In any case, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day over in your corner of the Keystone State that is the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.
Best Regards,
Uncle Bob
Best Regards,
Uncle Bob
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee
-
- Member
- Posts: 6
- Joined: 19 Sep 2019, 20:40
- Location: Россия
could the IJN beat the kriegsmarine
Willingly I accept. An interesting theme, I will take part. Together we can come to a right answer.