German frontal assault on the Maginot Line 1940

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German frontal assault on the Maginot Line 1940

#1

Post by HistoryGeek2019 » 13 Sep 2019, 00:17

What if Germany had opted for a direct frontal assault on the Maginot Line in 1940, instead of attacking through the Low Countries? I know Germany had some success against weaker locations on the Maginot Line in June 1940, but was that because the ML was inherently weak, or because the French were already losing and had withdrawn troops from those locations (or the French troops in those locations were demoralized from the defeat in the north and didn't put up much of a fight, or at least some of them didn't)?

There are several angles we can explore, but the most basic are:

(1) How much would it take in terms of men and material for Germany to take out the strong fortresses in the Maginot Line?

(2) How long would it take them?

(3) Were there enough weak spots on the Maginot Line such that Germany could achieve a strategic breakthrough without attacking the strong points? Or, how many strong points would Germany need to attack in order to achieve a strategic breakthrough?

(4) Could Germany successfully deceive the Allies into thinking Germany was going to attack elsewhere (e.g., through the Low Countries), such that Allied reserves would not be able to plug any holes in the ML before Germany could exploit them?

(5) Does a strategic breakthrough lead to the imminent fall of France? Is an encirclement of a significant portion of Allied troops in this sector possible following a breakthrough?

(6) Politically, assuming Germany could defeat France through a direct assault on the Maginot Line, to what extent does this spare Germany's international reputation by respecting the neutrality of the Low Countries? What if Germany also never invaded Denmark and Norway? Now, politically, Germany has only (1) exercised its territorial claims in Poland and (2) responded to a declaration of war by Britain and France. Does the United States see Germany as less aggressive, to the extent that a neutrality first candidate is elected in 1940 who cuts off aid to Britain?

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Re: German frontal assault on the Maginot Line 1940

#2

Post by Terry Duncan » 13 Sep 2019, 06:41

I realise you are new here, but the rules on What If subjects include the following;

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viewtopic.php?p=695271#p695271

Could you please expand upon your post and let us know your opinions?


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Re: German frontal assault on the Maginot Line 1940

#3

Post by HistoryGeek2019 » 13 Sep 2019, 07:27

I really don't have the knowledge to know what it would take for Germany to take out the strong fortresses in the Maginot Line, how long that would take, and whether it would result in the fall of France in 1940. I was just asking to see if anyone had knowledge in this area and wanted to share. I did search and saw that this topic hasn't been addressed before, and it could potentially alter the outcome of the war if it leads to the election of a pro-neutrality US president in 1940, so I thought it would be a valuable topic to add to the forum.

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Re: German frontal assault on the Maginot Line 1940

#4

Post by HistoryGeek2019 » 13 Sep 2019, 07:46

I will expand on a few points though.

First, I think this ATL has potential because of the element of surprise. If the Germans conduct a successful deception operation to make the Allies think they are going to attack through Belgium, then the Allied forces will be spread out along the German, Lux, and Belgian borders, with the entire BEF and most mobile French forces on the Belgian border, whereas Germany can concentrate its entire army along the French border. It is about 200 KM from Saint-Quentin (the vicinity of where the BEF/mobile French units were deployed) to Metz (the northernmost corner of the Maginot Line that borders Germany), and given the same slow response time that we saw in the OTL, I think we can posit at least a week, probably longer, before this force could be redeployed to counter-attack any Germany breakthroughs in the Maginot Line.

We know that in the OTL it took the German 16th Army 4 days to capture the petit ouvrage south of Sedan (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maginot_L ... rld_War_II), and that was an isolated fort, so that doesn't bode well for a quick assault against the larger fortresses. The History Channel tells us: "Despite the use of massive force, the Germans failed to capture a single major fortress before the armistice on June 25." (https://www.history.com/topics/world-wa ... ginot-line). So that doesn't bode well for Germany's ability to take out the large fortresses either.

On the other hand, if Germany concentrates its entire army and planning against the Maginot Line, perhaps it can speed things up. In addition, the large fortresses' artillery only had a range of 10 KM, so to the extent Germany can set up supply lines outside of that range, it can simply surround the large fortresses with a small amount of infantry and continue with further operations toward Paris.

I would add, in order to make this a war-winning move, Germany would need to encircle and destroy at least a significant portion of the French troops in this sector, so it would need to be a double envelopment near the flanks of the Maginot Line, in the vicinity of Metz in the north and Mulhouse in the south, linking up in the vicinity of Nancy and Epinal.

Bonus Question: If the Germans achieve rapid early success, do the British send the BEF to counter-attack, or do they concede the battle and withdraw to Britain? If Britain sends the entire BEF south, they risk losing the entire BEF, since they would be fighting and possibly encircled far away from the English Channel. But if they withdraw without fighting, they incur France's enmity. Britain had no problem incurring France's enmity in the OTL (Mers El Kebir, Dakar, Syria, etc.), so my money is on the BEF retreating to England if the Germans achieve a stunning breakthrough and encirclement of the Maginot Line. British propaganda can just blame it on French ineptitude and maybe allow a token force to fight to make it look like they tried.

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Re: German frontal assault on the Maginot Line 1940

#5

Post by HistoryGeek2019 » 13 Sep 2019, 08:18

I will also add why I think this would not alter the outcome of the war, even if it were successful.

If Germany defeated France in 1940 in this ATL, then Hitler and the High Command would still have the same over-inflated opinion of Germany's military capabilities that they had in the OTL. They wouldn't be scared of US intervention and try to appease it. Rather, they would follow the post-Battle of France OTL course of trying to bomb Britain into submission and pressing France and Spain for bases in North Africa and the east Atlantic, while raiding Atlantic shipping and welcoming Italian aggression in the Mediterranean, all of which would have fed American fear of Germany taking over the world. So FDR would still get re-elected, still open the coffers to the British, and Germany would still surrender in May 1945 (give or take a few months).

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Re: German frontal assault on the Maginot Line 1940

#6

Post by MLW » 13 Sep 2019, 11:21

Although we will never really know, a German offensive against the main part of the Maginot Line would probably have been a repeat of a World War I battle. The Wehrmacht simply did not have enough super-heavy siege artillery to destroy the Maginot Line's fortifications. The attack against Gros Ouvrage Fermont showed that infantry supported by 30.5cm Skoda mortars was completely ineffective, even when attacking the rear of the fortress.

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Re: German frontal assault on the Maginot Line 1940

#7

Post by jesk » 13 Sep 2019, 14:21

Everything depends on the separation of the offensive. The forces involved in the Ardennes could concentrate on the Maginot line. A breakthrough of even 5 km of defense led to the collapse of the entire line. Separation(echelons) provided more power to the external front of the encirclement and to the internal.

The red line indicates strong fortifications. The bulk of the troops was located north. The French expected to press the Germans to the sea and destroy. It happened the other way around.

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Re: German frontal assault on the Maginot Line 1940

#8

Post by jesk » 13 Sep 2019, 14:32

The scheme of German intelligence in 1944. The small shooters in Belorussia, there were no strong echelons. To cover the flanks and strike deep, did not have enough strength. The troops immediately spread across the territory. Approximately with German attacks on the Maginot Line in June 1940.
In Bagration, the defense collapsed, but it happened from a void in the German rear. No reserves after breaking the first line ...

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Re: German frontal assault on the Maginot Line 1940

#9

Post by T. A. Gardner » 13 Sep 2019, 18:15

If the Germans have things like the Karl 54 and 60 cm mortars and the 80 cm Gustav railgun ready, these were specifically designed, much like the Große Bertha 42 cm of WW 1 to smash Maginot Line fortifications.
In addition, the Germans figured out that 8.8 and 10.5 cm flak guns could quickly blind a Maginot line fort by shooting out the cloches.

Image

This would have incapacitated a fort by blinding it. Unable to direct fire or call fire accurately from neighboring forts, the line could have been taken out.

The weaker Rhine defense line part of the Maginot Line was shot to pieces using flak guns in a matter of minutes in many locations as it used bunkers facing the river. Same thing. Once the fortifications are neutralized, it becomes simply a river crossing against field forces.

While it would have been a tougher fight to go through the line, I think that it wouldn't have proved impossible to do.

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Re: German frontal assault on the Maginot Line 1940

#10

Post by maltesefalcon » 13 Sep 2019, 19:48

The forts would certainly be a challenge, but with modern air power, armour and paratroops, some could be neutralized or bypassed. Maybe enough to compromise the integrity of the defence once enough German forces were past the barrier?

But campaigns depend not only on balance of forces. The troops and supplies must cross the Rhine and pass through the Vosges in large strength.

The hilly Vosges countryside would channel invading troops to a certain extent. The Maginot fortresses' density was arranged to take advantage of that reality, to cover the natural invasion routes.

But the bridges across the Rhine would be the choke point, especially for rail traffic. Most if not all of these bridges were rigged with explosive charges. At any hint that Germans were approaching, the bridge would be dropped immediately.

Even when I lived near Rastatt in the late 1960s, there were few usable bridges across to France. The old rail one closest to us had only been partially restored for vehicles, with a one-lane span suitable only for cars.

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Re: German frontal assault on the Maginot Line 1940

#11

Post by HistoryGeek2019 » 14 Sep 2019, 05:31

T. A. Gardner wrote:
13 Sep 2019, 18:15
If the Germans have things like the Karl 54 and 60 cm mortars and the 80 cm Gustav railgun ready, these were specifically designed, much like the Große Bertha 42 cm of WW 1 to smash Maginot Line fortifications.
In addition, the Germans figured out that 8.8 and 10.5 cm flak guns could quickly blind a Maginot line fort by shooting out the cloches.

Image

This would have incapacitated a fort by blinding it. Unable to direct fire or call fire accurately from neighboring forts, the line could have been taken out.

The weaker Rhine defense line part of the Maginot Line was shot to pieces using flak guns in a matter of minutes in many locations as it used bunkers facing the river. Same thing. Once the fortifications are neutralized, it becomes simply a river crossing against field forces.

While it would have been a tougher fight to go through the line, I think that it wouldn't have proved impossible to do.
Thanks for this very informative reply. Where can I read more about this?

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Re: German frontal assault on the Maginot Line 1940

#12

Post by T. A. Gardner » 14 Sep 2019, 09:39

I don't know that there is any one good source for it. There are various wiki entries for many of the individual forts on the Maginot Line, a good number of sources in French, as well as a number of books now out on it.

The problem for the line in it's entirety is that it was designed in a specific way to maximize it's resistance to WW 1 (up through say 1930) weapons and for defense.
For example, most of the heavier guns were mounted in artillery blocks like the one shown below:

Image

These were set up to fire along the line, and couldn't really engage enemy targets in front of the line. The concept was they were invisible to fire from the enemy's direction of advance and their intent was to cover adjacent forts with fire.

While there were turrets on the line that could fire in a 360 degree direction, they were in the minority compared to the artillery blocks. Turrets came in two types for artillery: A twin 75mm turret and a twin 135mm turret. There were a few others here and there, but they were a distinct minority.
The 135mm turrets (usually just one for a fort) were indirect fire only and relied on control from observation cloches and the central fire direction center of the fort. The 75mm turrets could fire directly, but only had HE ammunition.
75mm turret. Note the gunsight slot between the guns

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135mm turret. No gunsight, indirect fire only

Image

So, the Germans could with relative ease move flak guns into positions where they could fire on the cloches. These served two primary purposes. The most important was they were the eyes of the forts. Taken out, the fort was blind. The second purpose was they were the close in defense of the fort for the most part armed with automatic rifles or machineguns. Once they were taken out, the Germans could approach the fort unobserved and attack the blocks with hollow charge weapons or from the rear.
Of course, the fort could call on their neighbors to just lay down fire on top of them which would have slowed the German assault considerably.

I can't find any evidence that the Germans took turrets under direct fire, but it is entirely possible this would happen if the line were assaulted. Again, once the turret took a few hits it would be rendered useless from damage. Worse, it could easily be stuck in the open position leaving it vulnerable to addition direct fire damage.

The forts would be very dependent on the interval troops and field artillery to support them and prevent a successful German attack on a fort. Without the interval troops, the forts were far more vulnerable to being defeated in detail. Historically, the larger forts proved capable of fending off what attacks the Germans made against them, but these were hardly made with everything the Germans might throw at a fort.

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Re: German frontal assault on the Maginot Line 1940

#13

Post by maltesefalcon » 14 Sep 2019, 14:13

Couple more notes/observations if I may.

The Maginot line was never intended to be an impregnable wall either in concept or in practice. In addition to its forts, there were storage depots, field hospitals and living quarters to ensure men did not have to live in slit trenches for long periods. Its main duty was to either discourage the Germans from attacking there or delay them long enough for reinforcements to arrive.

As for motivation, we have to look at France's major population centres. Of the top 10 urban areas of France, only Strasbourg would be threatened by an attack in this area. An attack along the Franco-Belgian frontier would threaten much more of France's urban centres as well as possibly capturing the northeast coast, the Seine and the Rhine delta.

It is also interesting that on a WW1 scale, very little activity took place in the Alsace Lorraine sector during that time. This despite the fact that the Maginot line did not exist in 1914 and the Germans already occupied both sides of the Rhine from the start.

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Re: German frontal assault on the Maginot Line 1940

#14

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 14 Sep 2019, 14:55

HistoryGeek2019 wrote:
14 Sep 2019, 05:31
Thanks for this very informative reply. Where can I read more about this?
Anthony Kemps 'The Maginot Line' is a good English language primer on the fortification system.

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Re: German frontal assault on the Maginot Line 1940

#15

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 14 Sep 2019, 15:17

Without quoting any specific posts here, there is a fundamental misunderstanding of how the fortresses were to function. They were not designed or intended to be a stand alone defense. They were laid out to support a field army of infantry, armor, artillery, and tactical air forces. Its primary purpose was as a reinforcement or supplement to the frontier defense. This sums up one of the several goals:
maltesefalcon wrote:
14 Sep 2019, 14:13
Couple more notes/observations if I may.

The Maginot line was never intended to be an impregnable wall either in concept or in practice. In addition to its forts, there were storage depots, field hospitals and living quarters to ensure men did not have to live in slit trenches for long periods. Its main duty was to either discourage the Germans from attacking there or delay them long enough for reinforcements to arrive. ...
As of 10 May there were 18 infantry divisions in the sector of CORF fortifications between Longwy & Strasbourg and 8 more ID in reserve. Nine corps & three army HQ with their powerful artillery groups supported the infantry.

It is correct the Germans had success against specific fortifications, These came after the field armies were withdrawn from the frontier to rebuild a defense to the west, where the French 1st, 7th, 9th, Armies & the BEF had been destroyed. That is the fortresses were fighting alone and not supporting the considerable field armies that had been in place from September into May. The sort of deliberate by the numbers attacks the Germans used to take out bunkers & forts were not not viable in the face of the complete defense. They would have had to be covered by large scale multiple battalion actions and involved significant casualties.

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