What if the Germans take England And the B36 becomes operational

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Robert Rojas
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Re: What If The Germans Take England And the B36 Becomes Operational.

Post by Robert Rojas » 23 Oct 2019 08:45

Greetings to both citizen 'wm' and the community as a whole. Howdy 'wm'! Well sir, in reference to your posting of Tuesday - October 22, 2019 - 11:04pm, just to sate my curiosity, to whom are you addressing your rhetorical questions? You're covering a great deal of contemporary political territory here which "MIGHT" require provocative responses that would undoubtedly attract the ire of the forum's management. Well, that's my latest two cents worth on this expansive topic of interest - for now anyway. As always, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day over in your corner of the ever enduring land of Poland - the front line in the reinstituted Cold War.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :|
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

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Re: What if the Germans take England And the B36 becomes operational

Post by wm » 23 Oct 2019 08:53

To the happy campers that want to camp in Spain, Turkey, Greece and maybe in Russia and Romania too. :)

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Re: What if the Germans take England And the B36 becomes operational

Post by HistoryGeek2019 » 23 Oct 2019 14:00

The Allies had no problem invading neutral countries during the war: Denmark, Iceland, Vichy France (Senegal, Morocco, Syria), Iraq and Persia.

Italy will still attack Greece, so Greece would welcome Allied liberation.

Hitler will still attack the Soviet Union, so his army will die there the same as in the OTL, and he needs to reach Baku or else he won't have enough fuel for an air force.

The Allies will still have absolute control over the world's seas, so neutral countries like Spain, Portugal and Turkey will still favor the Allies, just as in the OTL, since Hitler doesn't have anything valuable to trade with.

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Re: What if the Germans take England And the B36 becomes operational

Post by wm » 23 Oct 2019 21:36

All the mentioned countries were collaborators or were conquered by Germany, invading some of them weren't quite legal but for the American public not quite was good enough.
Spain and Turkey are entirely different, I can't even imagine the reaction of the Latin minority in the US.

Threatened by the US Hitler will not attack the USSR, there is no need for that. He attacked it because he couldn't defeat Britain, because Britain will be defeated in Russia.
He will not declare war on the US, there is no need for that. The war was declared because Barbarossa failed and he desperately needed more time to defeat Russia.
The US will have to declare war itself, committing an act of aggression.

Here we have:
1940 - the fall of Britain,
1945 - first American atomic bombs,
1948 - the B-36 arrives (it wasn't called a billion-dollar blunder for nothing).

So the Germans have at least five but more likely eight years to produce masses of fighters and bombers they need (as they actually intended).
They have time to produce their own atomic bomb.
They have the resources of entire Europe at their disposal, millions of determined and courageous soldiers.
The people who heroically fought even meters from the center of Berlin will not surrender because some of their cities are going to be destroyed.

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Re: What if the Germans take England And the B36 becomes operational

Post by HistoryGeek2019 » 23 Oct 2019 22:04

wm wrote:
23 Oct 2019 21:36
All the mentioned countries were collaborators or were conquered by Germany, invading some of them weren't quite legal but for the American public not quite was good enough.
It's the 1940s. The government controls the propaganda. The media say whatever the government tells them to. Either they ignore it (like Syria) or accuse the country of being Nazi collaborators (like Persia).

You overestimate the role of public opinion. Public opinion in Germany was resoundingly against the war, and yet they kept fighting until all their cities were in ruins. The American people weren't weaker than the Germans. The government controls what they hear and see, and can lock up anyone who tries to lead an opposition (look at what Lincoln did in the Civil War).

If Germany conquers Britain, it is still blockaded. It has no source of imports other than its Eastern European satellite states. Germany would have blown all its oil stock on the invasion (which would have required all of German industry to be devoted to that singular purpose), leaving them with nothing left. Stalin would realize that he is next on Hitler's invasion list and would have cut off the flow of raw materials to Germany (which weren't enough anyway). So Hitler would be stuck occupying Britain and Western Europe, countries with few natural resources that can't even feed themselves, blockaded from the rest of the planet and with a gigantic Soviet Army on his border and no oil to fuel his panzers or Luftwaffe. The Commonwealth forces in Egypt would keep fighting and defeat Mussolini just as in the OTL. American propaganda would rally the public against the Nazi threat (and the Japanese threat, since they would be trying to gobble up all of Britain's possessions in the Pacific) and engineer some excuse to enter the war in 1941. Hitler is doomed.

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Re: What if the Germans take England And the B36 becomes operational

Post by maltesefalcon » 23 Oct 2019 23:48

I see a couple of things above that need more explaining to me at least. It's pre-Pearl Harbor and the UK has fallen. So the US is not in the war and the rest of Europe is under the Axis umbrella.

Just who exactly is doing the blockade of Hitler's newfound empire? I don't buy that it would be the Royal Navy, as Hitler would surely demand its internment at a minimum, since he held all of Britain hostage.

And why would any Commonwealth troops be fighting in Africa? Again, fighting for colonies when the mother country is conquered makes little sense. If it was out of shear spite, then where are the 8th Armies supplies coming from?

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Re: What if the Germans take England And the B36 becomes operational

Post by HistoryGeek2019 » 24 Oct 2019 03:32

This scenario has Germany conquering Britain in 1941. By then the United States has passed lend-lease and is firmly in Britain's camp. Commonwealth forces would have already defeated Mussolini in Egypt in 1940. Does Hitler have the resources to send Rommel to Egypt in this ATL? Does he have the resources to invade Greece and Yugoslavia in March 1941, while keeping enough forces on the Eastern Front to hold off Stalin while preparing for the greatest amphibious invasion in human history?

Something has to give. Hitler can't do everything he did in the OTL and also conquer Britain 1941. How does he replace the LW losses from the Battle of Britain? How does he build the massive fleet of landing craft and escort vessels that would be needed to invade Britain? This would be a massive endeavor. Everything else in Germany would have to be cut in order to conquer Britain.

The Commonwealth was unwaveringly loyal to Britain in WW2. There wasn't a hint of wavering at any point, even in the dark days of 1940. Human nature is to circle the wagons when under attack, and the Commonwealth would have rallied together stronger than ever if Britain fell. Because they know the alternative is German/Italian/Japanese domination.

The Royal Navy would just sail to Canada and other Commonwealth bases once it was clear that Britain would fall. It wouldn't be like France. Transporting an army across the Channel and supplying it would be a painstakingly slow process for a Germany with no experience or infrastructure in amphibious warfare. Once it became clear that the Home Islands couldn't be held, the bulk of the British military would be withdrawn.

At that point the United States would either join the war or at the very least impose a trade embargo on Germany. Hitler would instinctively move for Dakar (his plan in the OTL), which would threaten Brazil and rally all of South America against Germany. The US and Royal Navy would quickly team up and take every island in the Atlantic and secure British bases in Nigeria and West Africa. The US would keep Commonwealth forces in Egypt supplied, and volunteers from America and British refugees would come streaming in.

So Germany can't trade with the Americas. It can't trade with the Pacific or Africa because the US and Commonwealth hold Suez and Cape Verde. That leaves Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union as Germany's only trading partners. Stalin knows that Germany is broke, exhausted and devoid of natural resources ... in short, Germany is at his mercy. He can either cut off trade completely or demand outrageous terms. Or he can just take Romania while Germany is throwing everything at Britain.

It's a no win scenario for Germany.

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RE: What If The Germans Take England And The B-36 Becomes Operational.

Post by Robert Rojas » 24 Oct 2019 05:22

Greetings to PresidentHistory Geek 2019 and the community as a whole. Howdy H.G. 2019! Well sir OR madam, in reference to your installment of Wednesday - October 22, 2019 - 1:04pm, old yours truly was curious what sort of overwhelming Casus Belli would President Franklin Delano Roosevelt sell to the Seventy Seventh United States Congress to justify a formal DECLARATION OF WAR against BOTH the Fascist Commonwealth of Europe AND the Imperial Japanese Empire? Of equal, if not of greater importance, how would President Franklin Delano sell this plan to Prime Minister William Lyon Mackenzie King of the Canadian Confederation? Keep in mind that Canada's Parliament approved its own formal DECLARATION OF WAR against National Socialist Germany on September 10, 1939 and what would be the present position of the Canadian Government of its continued involvement in the conflict in Europe after the "successful" invasion and subjugation of the British Isles in year 1941? After all, the United States of America WILL NEED Canada as a steadfast ally as it prosecutes its global war in both the realms of the North Atlantic Ocean AND the North Pacific Ocean. In short, what would be the overall political impact if the body politic of the GREAT WHITE NORTH wants nothing more to do with the war? It's just some friendly food for thought. Well, that's my latest two Yankee cents worth on this sojourn into HARM'S WAY - for now anyway. As always, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day from sea to shining sea.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :|
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

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Re: What if the Germans take England And the B36 becomes operational

Post by Takao » 24 Oct 2019 15:34

I am confused with the OP's timing here.

The USAAC/USAAF first issued their desired specs to bomber manufacturers in April, 1941. When their were no takers, they reduced the specs in August, 1941. While Boeing and Douglas turned them down, only Consolidated took up the challenge with a production contract being issued for 2 prototypes in November, 1941.

Now by moving this back 2 years to 1939, there is no need or desire for such a long-range bomber.

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Re: What if the Germans take England And the B36 becomes operational

Post by Takao » 24 Oct 2019 15:53

wm wrote:
22 Oct 2019 23:46
The Soviets needed 4 years to built the bomb from scratch. The Germans would do it in 2 years.

It's not about bombing a French factory in Paris and killing a few hundred French civilians.
It's about bombing the same factory and killing a million of them.
Not going to happen.

That there was nothing in France and Britain is quite optimistic. Actually the production capacity of Britain alone was the same as Germany's.

There were numerous essential industries in Central Europe. We might start with the enormous Skoda Works, Silesia Industrial Region (one of the largest in Europe), Romanian petroleum fields, and the synthetic rubber plant in Auschwitz.

Are you ready to detonate the big one over KL Auschwitz and its 100,000 prisoners?
Assuming you would be able to avoid swarms of German jets, significantly faster than the B-36.
Correction, the Soviets needed 7 years. There Atomic program officially commenced in 1942, and a bomb was not detonated until 1949. Not to mention that they were aided by there intelligence gathered from their spies in the US atomic program.


The Germans would do it in 2 years? They had 6 and came up with nothing.

Killing a million French? So, the US has thermonuclear capability in the mid-40s now. Some 70,000 French were killed in the Allied bomb campaign, so the distaste might not be near as great as you presume.


As to bombing Auschwitz, that had been contemplated and has been hotly debated for decades. The powers that be had decided that bombing Auschwitz would not slow or stop the Holocaust.

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Re: What if the Germans take England And the B36 becomes operational

Post by wm » 24 Oct 2019 16:58

The Soviet program commenced in 1942 but till 1945 achieved nothing as other priorities intervened.
The German program similarly wasn't allocated sufficient funds and manpower. Nazi Germany - facing defeat couldn't afford such a project and concentrated on short, emergency projects capable to deliver results in a year or faster.

The point is in this scenario, the Germans have at their disposal resources of entire Europe and can afford such projects and more - from day one.

If you can't do thousand-bomber raids you have to do nuclear strikes by the dozens - because, by area, Hiroshima-type bombs were less destructive.

Again the point is after "destroying" Germany you have to destroy the production capacity of occupied countries, and the American public won't accept the resulting casualties of innocent people.

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Re: RE: What If The Germans Take England And The B-36 Becomes Operational.

Post by wm » 24 Oct 2019 17:02

Robert Rojas wrote:
24 Oct 2019 05:22
Keep in mind that Canada's Parliament approved its own formal DECLARATION OF WAR against National Socialist Germany on September 10, 1939 and what would be the present position of the Canadian Government of its continued involvement in the conflict in Europe after the "successful" invasion and subjugation of the British Isles in year 1941?
the usual cultural appropriation :)
Both Canada and Australia with impressive grim determination supported Britain - I suppose the determination will last for a few years before they quit.

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Re: What if the Germans take England And the B36 becomes operational

Post by HistoryGeek2019 » 24 Oct 2019 17:23

wm wrote:
24 Oct 2019 16:58
The point is in this scenario, the Germans have at their disposal resources of entire Europe and can afford such projects and more - from day one.
Europe isn't exactly known for natural resources. It had a lot of industry that was dependent on imports of foreign raw materials, inputs that were denied to Germany in OTL and would still be denied in this ATL.
If you can't do thousand-bomber raids you have to do nuclear strikes by the dozens - because, by area, Hiroshima-type bombs were less destructive.

Why not both? Curtis LeMay would have bombed Germany non-stop with everything in the US arsenal.
Again the point is after "destroying" Germany you have to destroy the production capacity of occupied countries, and the American public won't accept the resulting casualties of innocent people.
You don't actually. The occupied countries weren't producing armaments in any meaningful amount. And the American public aren't exactly known for their concern for "casualties of innocent people" ... It's not like they rose up in revolt after Dresden or Hiroshima (or the millions of Koreans, Vietnamese, Iraqis, etc. that America has bombed).

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Re: What if the Germans take England And the B36 becomes operational

Post by wm » 24 Oct 2019 17:33

HistoryGeek2019 wrote:
24 Oct 2019 03:32
Commonwealth forces would have already defeated Mussolini in Egypt in 1940. Does Hitler have the resources to send Rommel to Egypt in this ATL? Does he have the resources to invade Greece and Yugoslavia in March 1941, while keeping enough forces on the Eastern Front to hold off Stalin while preparing for the greatest amphibious invasion in human history?

Commonwealth forces defeated Mussolini in Egypt in 1940 and then were defeated themselves. This time they will be defeated by an Afrika Korps on steroids, as the Wehrmacht has no other major commitments.

Stalin was interested in economic and political co-operation with Hitler as specified by the negotiated already (but eventually rejected by Hitler) second Hitler-Stalin pact. It wasn't in his country interest to support the US in this (We can maneuver, pit one side against the other to set them fighting with each other as fiercely as possible.).
A world dominated by a single power - the US, that controlled Europe too was his worst nightmare.
The USSR wasn't next on Hitler's invasion list, and such a list never existed.

Public opinion in Germany was resoundingly against wars of aggression, but all they knew was that Germany was attacked - first by Poland, and then Britain and France declared war on Germany.

In this, there were encouraged and supported by ***** ***** that for six years had maintained the economic blockade of Germany and in 1939 declared war on Germany too.
So here we have Germany fighting for survival in apocalyptic circumstances and there is no doubt every German will do his/her duty fighting against an unspeakably evil foe.


*** - Anti Semitic phrase removed by this Mod. Please refrain from using such terms on these boards as it all racist terms are banned.

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Last edited by wm on 24 Oct 2019 17:44, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What if the Germans take England And the B36 becomes operational

Post by wm » 24 Oct 2019 17:42

HistoryGeek2019 wrote:
24 Oct 2019 17:23
The point is in this scenario, the Germans have at their disposal resources of entire Europe and can afford such projects and more - from day one.
What resources aren't available? because during WW2 Germany produced enormous amounts of hardware.
And now they will be supplied by Stalin too.

The occupied countries did produce armaments, but many factories or their resources were moved to Germany to protect them from bombing and to consolidate the war efforts.
Here factories and their resources will be sent the other way.

Dresden and Hiroshima were enemy cities. They got what they deserved. It will be different if Paris or London will get what they don't deserve.

And you can't do LeMay from the US.

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