What if the Germans take England And the B36 becomes operational

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HistoryGeek2019
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Re: What if the Germans take England And the B36 becomes operational

Post by HistoryGeek2019 » 27 Oct 2019 02:27

It takes more than steel and chromium to fuel a war industry. Germany's imports fell drastically after the war started due to the British blockade. Look up any table of Germany's imports before and after September 1939. Germany was running out of oil by 1941.

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RE: What If The Germans Take England And The b-36 Becomes Operational.

Post by Robert Rojas » 27 Oct 2019 04:09

Greetings to both brother History Geek 2019 and the community as a whole. Howdy H.G. 2019! Well sir, old yours truly was flabbergasted when you made the assertion that "Germany was running out of oil by 1941". However, I will not belabor the point since there ARE MANY far more qualified forum contributors than myself that are more eminently qualified to speak on the issue of both National Socialist Germany AND Fascist Italy's access to petroleum during AND after year 1941. If ciitzen 'ljadw' ever gets wind of this thread, he'll undoubtedly drop by and READ YOU THE RIOT ACT on this subject right down to the very last litre of refined fuel. Now GEEK, just to acquaint OR possibly reacquaint yourself with a few particulars, when National Socialist Germany absorbed Austria on March 12, 1938, Germany inherited the oil fields of the Vienna Basin. When the nation of Romania formally joined the Axis Alliance on November 23, 1940, both National Socialist Germany and Fascist Italy gained access to the oil fields located at Ploesti. When the nation of Hungary formally joined the Axis Alliance on November 20, 1940, National Socialist Germany gained access to the Nagykanizsa Oil fields in the vicinity of Lake Balaton. Then there was the effort to manufacture SYNTHETIC OIL within National Socialist Germany itself. So GEEK, are you still all that certain that the Fatherland's petroleum predicament was as dire as you so cavalierly assert? Well, that's my latest two Yankee cents worth on this topic which is going nowhere fast - for now anyway. As always, I would like to bid you an especially copacetic day from sea to shining sea.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :|
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

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Re: What if the Germans take England And the B36 becomes operational

Post by David Thompson » 27 Oct 2019 04:48

wm -- Your use of the term "world jewry" (in your post at viewtopic.php?p=2230478#p2230478) is unwelcome here. if you are actually credulous enough to believe propaganda that all Jews think alike and act as a solid, indivisible bloc, find some expression less offensive to our readers -- one that doesn't evoke Judaeo-bolshevik banking conspiracies and Nazi-era Der Stuermer cartoons.

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Re: What if the Germans take England And the B36 becomes operational

Post by T. A. Gardner » 27 Oct 2019 06:37

wm wrote:
27 Oct 2019 00:43
I've read Mein Kampf, a couple of times, there is no such a thing there. He wanted to make Germany great, i.e., a great power that would dominate Europe, he wasn't even interested in North Africa. He intended to recreate Poland after the September Campaign but Stalin disagreed.
Must have been the Cliff Notes version.
In Mein Kampf (1925), Hitler dedicated a full chapter titled "Eastern Orientation or Eastern Policy", outlining the need for the new 'living space' for Germany. He claimed that achieving Lebensraum required political will, and that the National Socialist Movement ought to strive to expand population area for the German people, and acquire new sources of food as well
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... lebensraum

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost

Even the most cursory search on the subject shows Hitler planned a massive expansion of German territory into Russia well before he invaded.
The Americans supported a war, but they would have changed their minds later. Roosevelt constantly worried they would have changed their mind sooner.
Prove it. Everything I have says the opposite. In fact, in the months leading up to the US entering the war, Congress and FDR were far more concerned about militant union leaders like John L. Lewis, head of the United Mine Workers. A slogan of the time politically was "Get John L. Lewis first-- then Hitler." The UAW was easily on the of the most militant and strike prone unions in the US. So much so the government nationalized the mines and put troops in to force them open during the war.
There is little or nothing to support your position on this.

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Re: What if the Germans take England And the B36 becomes operational

Post by wm » 27 Oct 2019 09:07

American support for war in 1945. From The Beginning of the Cold War by Henry Kissinger.
In January 1945, The New York Times reported a secret communication from Roosevelt to Churchill on the British attempt to maintain a noncommunist government in Greece.
According to that report, Roosevelt had made it quite clear that the American public's favorable disposition toward postwar Anglo-American cooperation was fragile:
"...the British have been told with force and authority that the mood can change as mercurially as the English weather if the American people once get the idea that this war... [is] just another struggle between rival imperialisms.
American public was weary of war and confrontation, and wanted above all to bring the boys home. It was not ready to threaten further confrontation, much less a nuclear war, over political pluralism in Eastern Europe or its frontiers.
Unanimity about resisting further communist advances was matched by unanimity about not running any military risks. And confrontation with Stalin would not have been a tea party.

On why many students opposed U.S. intervention in World War II by Lynne Olson, the author of Those Angry Days. Roosevelt, Lindbergh, and America's Fight over World War II, 1939-1941
Students felt strongly because they were going to be the ones, you know, on the front lines if we got into the war, and they felt incredibly strongly that the first world war hadn't worked and that all these young Americans had been killed, and they didn't want to be next. You know, when I was doing research on the book, that whole subject reminded me a lot of Vietnam in the '60s.

There was a very big anti-war student movement before World War II. And we think of World War II as a good war, but, you know, that's in hindsight. It turned out in many ways it was a necessary war for us, but that wasn't clear back then and certainly not to a lot of Americans. And so these kids were basically saying, 'Hell no, we don't want to go to war. This is something we absolutely do not want to do.'

And this major isolationist organization ... America First was founded by a bunch of Yale students — Yale law students and Yale undergraduates — and among them were young men who went on to have incredibly illustrious careers. ...
Gerald Ford was a Yale law student, and he was one of the founders of America First. Potter Stewart, who later went on the Supreme Court, was also a founder. Sargent Shriver, the first head of the Peace Corps, was a founder, as was Kingman Brewster, who later became president of Yale and, quite ironically, U.S. ambassador to Great Britain. Among the students who supported America First were John F. Kennedy, who was a Harvard senior, and Kurt Vonnegut and a young prep school student named Gore Vidal.

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Re: What if the Germans take England And the B36 becomes operational

Post by wm » 27 Oct 2019 09:21

In Mein Kampf Hitler says the future is in the East, and identifies two geopolitical enemies of Germany: France and Russia, and two friends: Italy and Britain.
Do you know any his pr-1940 statement in the vein of "we need to conquer Russia?"
Because Germany didn't even have a common border with Russia and later tried to recreate Poland making Lebensraum in Russia pointless. btw Hitler annexed lots of Polish territories as Lebensraum anyway and populated them with Germans.

From: The Wages of Destruction
If we wish to understand what the Germans were doing in advance of operation Barbarossa, what we most concentrate on is Germany's strategic situation. As we argued in earlier chapters, despite the fantastic victory over France this was far from simple. The defeat of France had not won the war for Germany. Britain had not been defeated.
From the spring of 1941 onwards Britain could count on massive support from the United States and, given the economic vulnerability of Germany's new empire, the strategic outlook of the Third Reich was set to deteriorate from 1942 onwards.
In this situation, the conquest of the Soviet Union, even though it was an immense undertaking and even though it satisfied deep imperatives of Nazi ideology, could not be viewed in isolation. It was a means to the end of consolidating Germany's position for the ultimate confrontation with the Western powers.
Britain is defeated - no need for "it was an immense undertaking."
The German slogan was "Britain will be defeated in Russia" - Britain has been defeated - no need for a war with Russia.

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Re: RE: What If The Germans Take England And The b-36 Becomes Operational.

Post by wm » 27 Oct 2019 09:27

Robert Rojas wrote:
27 Oct 2019 04:09
when National Socialist Germany absorbed Austria on March 12, 1938, Germany inherited the oil fields of the Vienna Basin. When the nation of Romania formally joined the Axis Alliance on November 23, 1940, both National Socialist Germany and Fascist Italy gained access to the oil fields located at Ploesti. When the nation of Hungary formally joined the Axis Alliance on November 20, 1940, National Socialist Germany gained access to the Nagykanizsa Oil fields in the vicinity of Lake Balaton. Then there was the effort to manufacture SYNTHETIC OIL within National Socialist Germany itself.
And they had (paying) access to the Baku oil fields, one of the largest on this planet. The ones the British came so close to bombing - that would endear them to Stalin forever.
And Stalin knew about their plan.
Last edited by wm on 27 Oct 2019 10:20, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What if the Germans take England And the B36 becomes operational

Post by wm » 27 Oct 2019 09:55

David Thompson wrote:
27 Oct 2019 04:48
wm -- Your use of the term "world jewry" (in your post at viewtopic.php?p=2230478#p2230478) is unwelcome here. if you are actually credulous enough to believe propaganda that all Jews think alike and act as a solid, indivisible bloc, find some expression less offensive to our readers -- one that doesn't evoke Judaeo-bolshevik banking conspiracies and Nazi-era Der Stuermer cartoons.
But with all due respect I wrote:
Public opinion in Germany was resoundingly against wars of aggression, - that's true, even Goebbels said that.

but all they knew (the Germans) was that Germany was attacked - first by Poland, and then Britain and France declared war on Germany.
That's true they were told exactly that. They had no access to independent sources of information, and even if - it was he said, she said. And the German propaganda was usually of higher quality anyway.

And all they knew (the Germans) that in this, they were (the Allies) encouraged and supported by ***** ***** that for six years had maintained the economic blockade of Germany and in 1939 declared war on Germany too.

That is perfectly true too. Before the attack on Poland the German security forces, the Army were forcefully told by their own propaganda that "the international Jewish financiers in and outside Europe succeed in plunging the nations once more into a world war." All that after their long "cold war" on Germany.

As a result, every mistreated Jew during the September campaign was told by German soldiers it was because you, the Jews started the war (that was mentioned by almost anyone who survived).
According to the soldiers it wasn't the Poles, the Jews were guilty.

The claim that the Allies attacked first was insufficient. An everyday German would've asked why we are fighting another world war with the Allies over a Danzig, a dusty city at the far end of Germany. Who is responsible for that? Hitler, the Nazis? It's like ww1 again, it's not worth it.

But the claim it was world Jewry made it perfect, it couldn't be falsified and was believable. It wasn't about a dusty city, this time the very survival of Germany was at stake.
Without "world Jewry" the Nazis wouldn't be able to justify their wars to their people, their wars simply didn't make sense without it.

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Re: What if the Germans take England And the B36 becomes operational

Post by askropp » 27 Oct 2019 17:16

I think the majority of users understands the concept of Nazi propaganda. There is no need to repeat it over and over again, or one will have to assume that you do it on a certain purpose.
Britain has been defeated - no need for a war with Russia.
And this is pure nonsense. We have Hitler's own words: "Alles, was ich unternehme, ist gegen Rußland gerichtet. Wenn der Westen zu dumm und zu blind ist, dies zu begreifen, werde ich gezwungen sein, mich mit den Russen zu verständigen, den Westen zu schlagen und dann nach seiner Niederlage mich mit meinen versammelten Kräften gegen die Sowjetunion zu wenden." (to Carl Jacob Burckhardt) He had formulated that goal in Mein Kampf and repeated it in countless speeches and conversations.
Er ist wieder da. Aber auch dieses Mal wird er nicht siegen!

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Re: What if the Germans take England And the B36 becomes operational

Post by wm » 27 Oct 2019 19:15

"countless speeches " - please cite one.

That guy Burckhardt is considered to be an unreliable source. See the German Wikipedia for more, or Carl Jakob Burckhardt by Paul Stauffer.

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Re: What if the Germans take England And the B36 becomes operational

Post by askropp » 27 Oct 2019 19:48

So what kind of source would suit your taste? Mein Kampf, Liebmann protocol, Vierjahresplan, Hoßbach protocol, Schmundt protocol etc. etc.
Where are we supposed to look for Hitler's cherished Lebensraum? The cramped closet of Western Europe had no appeal at all to Hitler.
That guy Burckhardt is considered to be an unreliable source.
Yes, by that guy Stauffer. Allow me to consider Stauffer an even more unreliable source. He obviously tried to make a name for himself by pushing famous people from their pedestals. Probably just another Herostratos, if you ask me.

Last post from me in this thread (at least if no new reports by other users are received).
Er ist wieder da. Aber auch dieses Mal wird er nicht siegen!

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Re: What if the Germans take England And the B36 becomes operational

Post by wm » 27 Oct 2019 22:20

Take your best shot, remembering that Hitler's love of Lebensraum doesn't prove he did it because of Lebensraum.
That he didn't do it because it was a means to the end of consolidating Germany's position for the ultimate confrontation with the Western powers.

Lebensraum, autarky, racial purity, colonies, more were his stepping stones on the path to the ultimate goal - a great power status.
There were desirable but not required.

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Re: What if the Germans take England And the B36 becomes operational

Post by wm » 28 Oct 2019 08:39

Economic and political cooperation between Germany and Russia - an alternative to Barbarossa, and an attractive one because Barbarrosa gave the Germans almost nothing and cost them their access to oil, grain, manganese, and rubber.
From Feeding the German Eagle: Soviet Economic Aid to Nazi Germany, 1933-1941 by Edward E. Ericson, Edward E. Ericson, Jr.
Members of the Foreign Ministry and other German officials still believed closer economic relations were possible and were still working to persuade Hitler to abandon his plans for conquest only added to the confusion in Moscow. Why, after all, would Hitler risk losing a major supply of desperately needed raw materials and add a second front when military blackmail could accomplish many of the same goals at significantly less risk?

This, at any rate, was the case put forward by Schnurre, Schulenburg, Kostring, and others. In a series of reports and meetings, they continued to argue that the USSR was willing to appease the Reich and provide even greater quantities of raw materials for years to come.
In political matters the Soviets signed a neutrality pact with Japan on April 13, followed by Stalin's famous railroad-station greeting to Schulenburg and Acting Military Attaché Krebs: "We will remain friends with you—in any event." The Soviets also deferred to the Germans in regards to Finland, Rumania, and a new border settlement.
Schwerin-Krosigk also added his voice to the small chorus of those German officials opposing the upcoming attack. He argued, among other things, that Germany would actually lose grain by invading because of Soviet scorched-earth tactics, lack of transport, and diminishing German production as the labor force was siphoned off to fight in the east. Even though optimistic about Germany's chances in the military engagements, Weizsacker similarly concluded that we "would, on the other hand, lose in an economic sense."
Stalin was showing a much friendlier face than he had in the past. Soviet shipments of rubber and oil in particular had gone up sharply. Political signs of renewed cooperativeness also abounded, in particular with Stalin's taking over the role of premier from Molotov. Rudolf Hess's May 10 flight to England appears only to have reinforced Stalin's movement toward greater concessions to Germany. With England seemingly conniving with Germany, the dreaded "capitalist encirclement" might well be upon the Soviet Union. Stalin would now have to redouble his efforts to avoid war in 1941. Defensive measures had to be stepped up and cautious appeasement might have to become real appeasement. It was, as usual with Stalin, the logical move.
Based on these increasing Soviet export totals, Schnurre concluded on May 15 that "we could make economic demands on Moscow which would even go beyond the scope of the treaty of January 10, 1941. The German navy argued similarly on May 2 that the "Russian government is endeavoring to do everything to prevent a conflict with Germany."
On the major questions of oil, rubber, and grain, the Soviets were doing just about everything they could to meet the German demands. Warehouses in Vladivostok in the Far East and Varna and Constantia in Rumania were filling up faster than the German and Soviet transportation systems, overloaded as they were with military preparations, could handle. The pace continued until the eve of battle with a Soviet express train, carrying 2,100 tons of desperately needed rubber, crossing the border only hours before the invasion began!
Expecting a quick victory and an economic bonanza, Hitler was soon disappointed on both accounts. As Schnurre, Schulenburg, and others had warned him, the invasion of the east proved to be a long and exhausting affair from which Germany received very little of the economic benefit Hitler and some of his military advisors had anticipated. The occupation itself was brutal, confused, and inefficient. After almost four years of control and incalculable costs, the Germans had been able to squeeze out of the Soviet Union only about 4.5 billion RM. In contrast, tiny Belgium had contributed roughly 9.3 billion RM to the Reich.

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Re: What if the Germans take England And the B36 becomes operational

Post by HistoryGeek2019 » 28 Oct 2019 15:17

Soviet imports weren't enough to compensate for the British blockade. Germany imported something like 8 million tons of oil annually before the war. Stalin was only giving them 900,000. He might have agreed to raise it 10% or 15%, but he wasn't going to give Germany 8 million tons.

And rail transport from the far east inherently has less capacity than ocean freight, especially when the Soviets are using the same rail lines for their own needs.

Germany was hemorrhaging equipment and resources badly before Barbarossa. The Luftewaffe was weaker on June 22, 1941 than when Germany invaded Poland. Stalin supported Germany because Germany was losing to Britain. He would have betrayed the Germans in the end, just like he betrayed the Japanese.

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Re: What if the Germans take England And the B36 becomes operational

Post by wm » 28 Oct 2019 19:13

Stalin denounced legally the Soviet–Japanese Neutrality Pact. He was able to recover lost Russian lands, was rewarded handsomely by the Allies for his cooperation.
In 1941 Roosevelt had nothing, he wouldn't be unable to pay for Stalin's services.

As long as the much stronger US threatens Germany Stalin isn't going to switch sides (especially for free). His goal was to perpetuate the war among the capitalist states forever - until they collapse.

Between 1940 and 1943 Germany was able to import and produce 8.9 million tons of oil. With Stalin's 1 million that was enough to prepare for the American invasion.
Germany can afford now an Africa Corps on steroids, which will be able to conquer the Suez Canal, maybe even Iraq/Iran and their oil.

Economic needs of Germany and Russia were compatible, the trade beneficial to both of them. Another reason not to switch sides.
the Third Five-Year Plan and new rearmament efforts were creating greater Soviet demand for manufactured goods. At the same time, the prospect of a European war was pushing England and the United States to scale back their exports of exactly the items that the USSR wanted.
The new friendship with Nazi Germany also alienated Western governments, as did Stalin's later invasion of Finland.
For example, more than 50 percent of Soviet exports had gone to countries that ceased trade relations with the USSR in September.
If Germany increasingly needed Soviet resources, the USSR also increasingly needed German machines.
Feeding the German Eagle: Soviet Economic Aid to Nazi Germany

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