Allies end the war by Christmas 1944

Discussions on alternate history, including events up to 20 years before today. Hosted by Terry Duncan.
Richard Anderson
Member
Posts: 2939
Joined: 01 Jan 2016 21:21
Location: Bremerton, Washington

Re: Allies end the war by Christmas 1944

Post by Richard Anderson » 29 Dec 2019 23:24

Cult Icon wrote:
29 Dec 2019 14:55
I don't have the book with me anymore as I returned it. However, there is a casualties breakdown at the end of the book with both sides having around the same.
Okay, based on your remarks and the reviews I may order it. Thanks.
This is called in "less wordy terms" an abortive attack. 9.SS had sufficient strength to support the defense of hill 112 for the next couple of weeks- they came from Russia at approx. 3/4th combat strength and were down to about half after the attack. KG Weidinger was reduced and returned to its parent formation.
Now I'm confused? I thought we were talking about 12. SS immediately after D-Day? Now end of June and the arrival of II. SS-Panzerkorps? Both were reactions to Allied attacks...they were failed counterattacks. The Germans were never able to develop a counteroffensive. Instead, the Allies continued to attack, which was the source of most of their casualties...what I was talking about originally.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

User avatar
Cult Icon
Member
Posts: 1709
Joined: 08 Apr 2014 19:00

Re: Allies end the war by Christmas 1944

Post by Cult Icon » 01 Jan 2020 15:40

I read the preview for :

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1612006353/?c ... _lig_dp_it

According to it, the IV SS PzK HQ was actually slated for a West Front commitment. Instead, it and its subordinate formations (3.SS and 5.SS) were historically sent to Warsaw in the aftermath of Operation Bagration, which started June 23rd, 1944. Both formations had been hastily refreshed and were more or less full divisions again.

The 9.SS H and 10.SS F were also slated for a West front commitment and even given anti-airborne training. It may have been in Tiecke's Firestorm in the last year of the war or another book on H/F where I also read that their West Front mission was of such that in the SU they were only committed in the operations to relieve Fortress Tarnopol and linking up with 1st Panzer Army remnants. (preserve their strength) The addition of II SS PzK (9.SS, 10.SS) and IV SS PzK (3.SS, 5.SS) to the ATL counteroffensive in the West would be a major reinforcement. Movement orders would of course be given many days before a counteroffensive so I think it's possible that they would receive this prior to June 23rd. Of course, the German position East of Warsaw would be worsened without IV SS PzK.

Tom from Cornwall
Member
Posts: 2030
Joined: 01 May 2006 19:52
Location: UK

Re: Allies end the war by Christmas 1944

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 01 Jan 2020 17:59

Cult Icon wrote:
01 Jan 2020 15:40
The addition of II SS PzK (9.SS, 10.SS) and IV SS PzK (3.SS, 5.SS) to the ATL counteroffensive in the West would be a major reinforcement.
What ATL counteroffensive are you talking about? Do you mean the counter-attack by II SS Pz Corps against the British forces involved in Epsom and Martlet? Or do you mean a fantasy attack later in the summer?

I must agree with you that 'Stopping the Panzers' is an interesting re-assessment of the performance of 3 Cdn Inf Div and supporting arms during the first critical phase of the Normandy campaign, and well worth reading.

Regards

Tom

Richard Anderson
Member
Posts: 2939
Joined: 01 Jan 2016 21:21
Location: Bremerton, Washington

Re: Allies end the war by Christmas 1944

Post by Richard Anderson » 01 Jan 2020 18:26

Cult Icon wrote:
01 Jan 2020 15:40
I read the preview for :

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1612006353/?c ... _lig_dp_it

According to it, the IV SS PzK HQ was actually slated for a West Front commitment. Instead, it and its subordinate formations (3.SS and 5.SS) were historically sent to Warsaw in the aftermath of Operation Bagration, which started June 23rd, 1944. Both formations had been hastily refreshed and were more or less full divisions again.
There may be some confusion? IV. SS-PzK was originally organized 5 August 1943 in the West under Ob.West/HG-D to control 9. and 16. SS at Poitiers. Apparently little progress in creating the headquarters occurred since on 30 June 1944 the formation was halted and instead VII. SS-PzK, organized 3 October 1943 at Metz to control 10. and 17. SS, was renamed as IV. SS-PzK. 3. and 5. SS were assigned to the corps 28 July 1944 near Warsaw.
The 9.SS H and 10.SS F were also slated for a West front commitment and even given anti-airborne training. It may have been in Tiecke's Firestorm in the last year of the war or another book on H/F where I also read that their West Front mission was of such that in the SU they were only committed in the operations to relieve Fortress Tarnopol and linking up with 1st Panzer Army remnants. (preserve their strength) The addition of II SS PzK (9.SS, 10.SS) and IV SS PzK (3.SS, 5.SS) to the ATL counteroffensive in the West would be a major reinforcement. Movement orders would of course be given many days before a counteroffensive so I think it's possible that they would receive this prior to June 23rd. Of course, the German position East of Warsaw would be worsened without IV SS PzK.
Yes indeed, they came under command II. SS-PzK 27 April 1944. Much of spring 1944 in Ob.West was taken up with anti-airborne exercises, which were a major concern for Geyr. The famous 6 June Rennes exercise was actually anti-airborne.

IV. (nee VII.) SS-PzK received orders to move from Metz east by train under HG-Mitte on 19 July 1944. The elements of the corps headquarters arrived at Rembertow, Warsaw on 25 July and was placed under command of 2. AOK, but did not have any troops assigned, since the corps nominal CG, SS-Gruppenführer und GenLt. D.W SS Herbert Gille was still north of the Bug commanding 5. SS-Panzerdivision. It was 30 July before Gille took command of the corps and two divisions, assigned now to 9. AOK, but even then he was hampered by missing personnel and organization in the corps and so relied on his old Wiking staff to command.

I can find no evidence that such a commitment as you ascribe was ever contemplated or practicable.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

Richard Anderson
Member
Posts: 2939
Joined: 01 Jan 2016 21:21
Location: Bremerton, Washington

Re: Allies end the war by Christmas 1944

Post by Richard Anderson » 01 Jan 2020 18:27

Tom from Cornwall wrote:
01 Jan 2020 17:59
Cult Icon wrote:
01 Jan 2020 15:40
The addition of II SS PzK (9.SS, 10.SS) and IV SS PzK (3.SS, 5.SS) to the ATL counteroffensive in the West would be a major reinforcement.
What ATL counteroffensive are you talking about? Do you mean the counter-attack by II SS Pz Corps against the British forces involved in Epsom and Martlet? Or do you mean a fantasy attack later in the summer?

I must agree with you that 'Stopping the Panzers' is an interesting re-assessment of the performance of 3 Cdn Inf Div and supporting arms during the first critical phase of the Normandy campaign, and well worth reading.

Regards

Tom
Thanks Tom, with that confirmation I think I will order it. However, I am reluctant to order Nash's if it is spinning a fantasy narrative of events.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

Tom from Cornwall
Member
Posts: 2030
Joined: 01 May 2006 19:52
Location: UK

Re: Allies end the war by Christmas 1944

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 01 Jan 2020 20:07

Richard Anderson wrote:
01 Jan 2020 18:27
I am reluctant to order Nash's if it is spinning a fantasy narrative of events.
The Amazon page that Cult Icon linked to doesn't mention anything about IV SS Pz Corps being 'slated' to a West Front commitment though.
Cult Icon wrote:
01 Jan 2020 15:40
the IV SS PzK HQ was actually slated for a West Front commitment.
Nor did the blurb on the Casemate Publishers website:

https://www.casematepublishing.co.uk/fr ... g-sun.html

So, Cult Icon,

Which preview are you referring to?

Regards

Tom

User avatar
Aida1
Member
Posts: 1012
Joined: 04 Aug 2019 08:46
Location: Brussels

Re: Allies end the war by Christmas 1944

Post by Aida1 » 01 Jan 2020 22:01

Cult Icon wrote:
01 Jan 2020 15:40
I read the preview for :

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1612006353/?c ... _lig_dp_it

According to it, the IV SS PzK HQ was actually slated for a West Front commitment. Instead, it and its subordinate formations (3.SS and 5.SS) were historically sent to Warsaw in the aftermath of Operation Bagration, which started June 23rd, 1944. Both formations had been hastily refreshed and were more or less full divisions again
You got it seriously wrong here. Detail about the formation of IV SS Pz corps can be found in Europaische Freiwillige, P Strassner Munin Verlag 1971 pp287-289 and pp 415-416. Effectively setting up the corps HQ was done on August 12 1944 in execution of an order of 20.07. Nothing to do with the western front. Totenkopf and Viking were never intended for the western front. Viking was being refitted in Poland and was barely ready when sent east in the second half of juli. Where you see Viking being intended for the west is an enigma. Totenkopf and Viking being used on the western front in Normandy is a fantasy.

User avatar
Cult Icon
Member
Posts: 1709
Joined: 08 Apr 2014 19:00

Re: Allies end the war by Christmas 1944

Post by Cult Icon » 01 Jan 2020 22:10

Click the "look inside" for a fairly large preview

User avatar
Aida1
Member
Posts: 1012
Joined: 04 Aug 2019 08:46
Location: Brussels

Re: Allies end the war by Christmas 1944

Post by Aida1 » 02 Jan 2020 10:16

Cult Icon wrote:
01 Jan 2020 22:10
Click the "look inside" for a fairly large preview
Even a bit of googling or even basic knowledge about Viking and Totenkopf could have learned you that there was never any question of them going to the west in the summer of 1944.A good reason to be a bit more modest.

Tom from Cornwall
Member
Posts: 2030
Joined: 01 May 2006 19:52
Location: UK

Re: Allies end the war by Christmas 1944

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 02 Jan 2020 18:41

Cult Icon wrote:
01 Jan 2020 22:10
Click the "look inside" for a fairly large preview
Thanks, I did. You appear to have misunderstood what Douglas Nash was saying. Yes, he mentions a feeling in the newly formed Corps Headquarters (which had not been assigned any divisions to command) that they (the Corps HQ and attached Corps units - still being formed) would probably eventually be assigned to the western front to command existing SS formations there. There is no suggestion in the preview that at any point there was any possibility that 3 or 5 SS Pz Divisions would also be sent to the western front.

Regards

Tom

User avatar
Cult Icon
Member
Posts: 1709
Joined: 08 Apr 2014 19:00

Re: Allies end the war by Christmas 1944

Post by Cult Icon » 05 Jan 2020 17:52

Some interesting case studies that can populate "what-ifs":

1. The effective delay/counter-operations of the 11.Pz (19th Army's only PzD reserve) against the advance of the 6th Army Group after Dragoon. Quite similar set of tactical maneuvers practiced in the german retreat in the East. Imagine this done in large scale, such as by an entire PzGruppe.

2.The relentless, "all in" attack of the 12.SS in the Ardennes offensive, in particular the battles of the twin villages. A case for criticism and what could have been done better.

Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 6318
Joined: 07 May 2002 19:40
Location: Teesside

Re: Allies end the war by Christmas 1944

Post by Michael Kenny » 05 Jan 2020 18:07

Tom from Cornwall wrote:
02 Jan 2020 18:41
. There is no suggestion in the preview that at any point there was any possibility that 3 or 5 SS Pz Divisions would also be sent to the western front.
I/SS Pz Rgt 3 was in France (Mailly-le-Camp) for training April-July 8th 1944. They will have been there for the bombing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardme ... ly-le-Camp

User avatar
Aida1
Member
Posts: 1012
Joined: 04 Aug 2019 08:46
Location: Brussels

Re: Allies end the war by Christmas 1944

Post by Aida1 » 06 Jan 2020 09:46

Cult Icon wrote:
05 Jan 2020 17:52
Some interesting case studies that can populate "what-ifs":

1. The effective delay/counter-operations of the 11.Pz (19th Army's only PzD reserve) against the advance of the 6th Army Group after Dragoon. Quite similar set of tactical maneuvers practiced in the german retreat in the East. Imagine this done in large scale, such as by an entire PzGruppe.

2.The relentless, "all in" attack of the 12.SS in the Ardennes offensive, in particular the battles of the twin villages. A case for criticism and what could have been done better.
2. Not attack there at all with a Pz div :lol:

User avatar
Aida1
Member
Posts: 1012
Joined: 04 Aug 2019 08:46
Location: Brussels

Re: Allies end the war by Christmas 1944

Post by Aida1 » 06 Jan 2020 09:57

Cult Icon wrote:
05 Jan 2020 17:52
Some interesting case studies that can populate "what-ifs":

1. The effective delay/counter-operations of the 11.Pz (19th Army's only PzD reserve) against the advance of the 6th Army Group after Dragoon. Quite similar set of tactical maneuvers practiced in the german retreat in the East. Imagine this done in large scale, such as by an entire PzGruppe.

2.The relentless, "all in" attack of the 12.SS in the Ardennes offensive, in particular the battles of the twin villages. A case for criticism and what could have been done better.
1. More complicated in the west with allied air superiority and highly unlikely to be allowed.Where the east is concerned i refer again to the book 'Der Gegenschlag" by von Senger und Etterlin mentioned before.

User avatar
Sheldrake
Member
Posts: 2435
Joined: 28 Apr 2013 17:14
Location: London

Re: Allies end the war by Christmas 1944

Post by Sheldrake » 06 Jan 2020 22:47

Here are two people who disagreed about whether the war would be won by Christmas 1944
eph-bet-w-ike-and-monty-war-will-end-alex-auctions_1_orig.jpg
Ike thought it would. Monty thought it wouldn't
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Return to “What if”