Russian Tsar Nicholas II experiences a severe head injury in 1894 and acquires a Hitler-like personality

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Russian Tsar Nicholas II experiences a severe head injury in 1894 and acquires a Hitler-like personality

Post by Futurist » 06 Jan 2020 05:50

What if Russian Tsar Nicholas II would have experienced a severe head injury in late 1894 (shortly after becoming Russian Tsar) and thus acquiring a Hitler-like personality--as in, rabidly anti-Semitic, eager for Lebensraum and mass colonization (but of Russians/Slavs rather than Germans), having totalitarian and militaristic inclinations, et cetera.

How would this version of Nicholas II have governed Russia? Basically, in this scenario, we see a Russian version of Hitler, but almost half a century earlier and with a much more populous and much larger but also much less industrialized country (and also one with a lot more Jews than Nazi Germany had).

Anyway, any thoughts on this?

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Re: Russian Tsar Nicholas II experiences a severe head injury in 1894 and acquires a Hitler-like personality

Post by wm » 06 Jan 2020 23:59

A head-injured Tsar Nicholas II would rather become an Old Believer than a fascist after all Russia had lots of Lebensraum and didn't need more.

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Re: Russian Tsar Nicholas II experiences a severe head injury in 1894 and acquires a Hitler-like personality

Post by Futurist » 06 Jan 2020 23:59

wm wrote:
06 Jan 2020 23:59
A head-injured Tsar Nicholas II would rather become an Old Believer than a fascist after all Russia had lots of Lebensraum and didn't need more.
What's the difference between Old Believers and fascists?

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Re: Russian Tsar Nicholas II experiences a severe head injury in 1894 and acquires a Hitler-like personality

Post by wm » 07 Jan 2020 02:31

It's like the difference between the Amish and the Nazis.

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Re: Russian Tsar Nicholas II experiences a severe head injury in 1894 and acquires a Hitler-like personality

Post by Futurist » 07 Jan 2020 06:54

wm wrote:
07 Jan 2020 02:31
It's like the difference between the Amish and the Nazis.
The Amish aren't anti-Semitic, are they? If anything, they seem to be a rural Mennonite version of Ultra-Orthodox Jews, no?

Anyway, how does an Amish-like Nicholas II conduct his domestic and foreign policies? I'm presuming that Nicholas II would want to flood various non-Russian territories with Russian and Slavic settlers in this scenario--which raises the question of just how successful he is going to be in regards to this in this scenario.

Also, can't Russia acquire additional homesteading territories in Mongolia and Xinjiang in this scenario?

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Re: Russian Tsar Nicholas II experiences a severe head injury in 1894 and acquires a Hitler-like personality

Post by wm » 08 Jan 2020 22:24

Well, the Tsar wasn't anti-Semitic either, he merely represented Russian interests.
Not to mention that the word itself explains nothing but judges without evidence immediately.

An evil Nicholas II probably would double-down on what they were pursuing already; gaining access to the world's oceans and the Russification of non-Russian parts of the Empire.

The Russians were settling people in Siberia - as many as they could, they couldn't afford more.
As to the world's oceans, the Russians got what they needed in China so his attention should be directed at the Ottoman Empire now.

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Re: Russian Tsar Nicholas II experiences a severe head injury in 1894 and acquires a Hitler-like personality

Post by Futurist » 08 Jan 2020 23:16

So, keeping the Jews out of the Russian interior merely represented Russian interests by preventing Jewish merchants from dominating trade in the Russian interior? By that logic, Jewish quotas aren't anti-Semitic either but are rather merely pro-gentile.

Also, I wasn't only thinking about Siberia here but also about Central Asia, the Caucasus, Ukraine, Belarus, Moldova, the Baltic territories, and Finland.

As for the Ottoman Empire, Russia refused a golden opportunity to acquire additional territory during the Hamidian massacres in 1894-1897. So, for the first two or three years of his reign, Nicholas could have militarily intervened in the Ottoman Empire and tried to acquire more Ottoman territory for Russia but never actually did.

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Re: Russian Tsar Nicholas II experiences a severe head injury in 1894 and acquires a Hitler-like personality

Post by wm » 09 Jan 2020 02:19

Well, they had lots of Armenians already, they didn't need more of them. They needed the Bosporus, and that was impossible, the European powers wouldn't allow that.

I suppose the protected their (thin and vulnerable) middle class from Jewish economic competition. If the people complained, even the Czar had to pay attention.
But in Russia, non-Russians, non-Orthodox Christianians simply had fewer or different rights. I had been like that everywhere on this planet for hundreds of years - even in the US women and blacks received full rights as late as the 20th century.
Even today, Israel doesn't allow any non-Jewish immigrants - and Christian, Buddist Jews aren't accepted. Russia wasn't any different.

I'm reading right know diary of a Jewish author Cwi Pryłucki, and he tells a story of an exceedingly beautiful Jewish girl, so beautiful the Tsar's family noticed her (in the St Petersburg's opera) and started inviting to their palace.
Her family horrified that a prince or maybe even Nicholas himself would fall in love with her, quickly removed her to Poland and married to some physically unattractive Jew.
Later he tells about massive Jewish speculations in Moscow that left lots of people penniless permanently - including his friend.
So it wasn't that bad, Jewish elites were able to live and prosper in Russia. Solzhenitsyn, in his book, says the same.

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Re: Russian Tsar Nicholas II experiences a severe head injury in 1894 and acquires a Hitler-like personality

Post by Futurist » 09 Jan 2020 06:45

wm wrote:
09 Jan 2020 02:19
Well, they had lots of Armenians already, they didn't need more of them. They needed the Bosporus, and that was impossible, the European powers wouldn't allow that.
But the coastline of Pontus could also be nice to have, no? It would have at least been much easier for Russia to acquire in the 1890s than Constantinople.
I suppose the protected their (thin and vulnerable) middle class from Jewish economic competition. If the people complained, even the Czar had to pay attention.
What about the non-Jewish middle class in the Pale of Settlement? Wouldn't they have welcomed a reduction in the amount of Jewish competition that they would have faced?
But in Russia, non-Russians, non-Orthodox Christianians simply had fewer or different rights. I had been like that everywhere on this planet for hundreds of years - even in the US women and blacks received full rights as late as the 20th century.
Very true! However, it's worth noting that the US didn't impose any restrictions on the freedom of movement of blacks after the end of slavery and the American Civil War. So, blacks could leave the Jim Crow South and move elsewhere in the US.
Even today, Israel doesn't allow any non-Jewish immigrants - and Christian, Buddist Jews aren't accepted. Russia wasn't any different.
IMHO, Israel should change its attitude in regards to this. That said, though, such discrimination in regards to immigration might be considered more acceptable than such discrimination in other contexts.
I'm reading right know diary of a Jewish author Cwi Pryłucki, and he tells a story of an exceedingly beautiful Jewish girl, so beautiful the Tsar's family noticed her (in the St Petersburg's opera) and started inviting to their palace.
Her family horrified that a prince or maybe even Nicholas himself would fall in love with her, quickly removed her to Poland and married to some physically unattractive Jew.
Later he tells about massive Jewish speculations in Moscow that left lots of people penniless permanently - including his friend.
So it wasn't that bad, Jewish elites were able to live and prosper in Russia. Solzhenitsyn, in his book, says the same.
Actually being allowed to settle in Moscow in Tsarist times was extremely difficult for Jews, no? I seem to recall that thousands of Jewish residents of Moscow even got expelled by the Tsarist Russian government in 1891! :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... _in_Moscow

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Re: Russian Tsar Nicholas II experiences a severe head injury in 1894 and acquires a Hitler-like personality

Post by wm » 09 Jan 2020 18:59

Solzhenitsyn says there were sizable legal Jewish populations in major Russian cities, and even larger illegal.

That expulsion in Moscow is impossible to judge, nothing there about motives and opinions of the Russian side.
Was it an expulsion of illegals? A security measure after the apocalyptic for the Russians murder of Alexander II?

The grain exports were almost completely controlled by Jews, Jews composed 13.5 percent of all university students. Jewish oligarchic dynasties: the Gintsburgs, the Polyakovs, the Brodskys, the Zaitsevs, the Balakhovskys, the Ashkenazis amassed enormous fortunes. There were restrictions but they were gradually withdrawn.

The emerging Gentile middle class in the Pale of Settlement (i.e. in Poland) was in conflict with the Jews but the Jews had the upper hand, the Russians trusted them more than the rebellious "natives."

As to Pontus, there was a taboo in international relations against conquering ethnic territories of established powers. You were expected to gain them somewhere else, in Asia/Africa. Russia would pay dearly for that.

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Re: Russian Tsar Nicholas II experiences a severe head injury in 1894 and acquires a Hitler-like personality

Post by Futurist » 09 Jan 2020 23:36

wm wrote:
09 Jan 2020 18:59
Solzhenitsyn says there were sizable legal Jewish populations in major Russian cities, and even larger illegal.
In 1897, there were only 8,000 Jews in Moscow and 17,000 Jews in St. Petersburg:

https://www.academia.edu/1474254/Jews_i ... c_Dynamics

So, the illegal Jewish population must have been huge in other for your analysis here to actually work.
That expulsion in Moscow is impossible to judge, nothing there about motives and opinions of the Russian side.
Was it an expulsion of illegals? A security measure after the apocalyptic for the Russians murder of Alexander II?
It would be highly strange if it was a security measure considering that:

1. It happened 10 years after Alexander II's assassination. Why wait for so long?
2. It occurred in Moscow and not in St. Petersburg--which is where the Russian Tsar actually lived.
The grain exports were almost completely controlled by Jews, Jews composed 13.5 percent of all university students.
In the Pale only or for all of Russia?

Also, the high Jewish university student % and literacy rate can probably be explained by their high average IQ.
Jewish oligarchic dynasties: the Gintsburgs, the Polyakovs, the Brodskys, the Zaitsevs, the Balakhovskys, the Ashkenazis amassed enormous fortunes. There were restrictions but they were gradually withdrawn.
I thought that Zaitsev isn't a Jewish last name?
The emerging Gentile middle class in the Pale of Settlement (i.e. in Poland) was in conflict with the Jews but the Jews had the upper hand, the Russians trusted them more than the rebellious "natives."
So, the Russian government trusted Great Russians more than Jews but trusted Jews more than Poles, Belarusians, and Ukrainians?
As to Pontus, there was a taboo in international relations against conquering ethnic territories of established powers. You were expected to gain them somewhere else, in Asia/Africa. Russia would pay dearly for that.
Russia already previously acquired some other territories at the Ottomans' expense, though:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... _Rusia.svg

Image

So, why would Pontus have been any different?

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Re: Russian Tsar Nicholas II experiences a severe head injury in 1894 and acquires a Hitler-like personality

Post by wm » 10 Jan 2020 20:46

Russia acquired some territories and then the British arrived and humiliated her front of the whole world.
And the Japanese did the same later.
At the turn of the century acquiring at the expense of established powers wasn't that safe or profitable.

The Poles rebelled four times that was quite enough to sow some distrust. The Belarusians and Ukrainians were mostly (illiterate) peasants they didn't count.

I suppose Zaitsev means hare-like. At some point in time people were requested to assume surnames and if a confused Jew/peasant deliberated too long bored bureaucrats assigned him their own. In this case that Zaitsev was quite lucky it could have been much worse.

The Jews controlled the entire Russian grain exports.

The number of legal Jews in cities actually reflects the percentage of Jews in Russia.

The high number of Jews in universities shows they weren't especially restricted in this case.

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Re: Russian Tsar Nicholas II experiences a severe head injury in 1894 and acquires a Hitler-like personality

Post by Futurist » 12 Jan 2020 02:15

wm wrote:
10 Jan 2020 20:46
Russia acquired some territories and then the British arrived and humiliated her front of the whole world.
In the Crimean War? Because Russia did conquer large parts of Central Asia afterwards.
And the Japanese did the same later.
Yep.
At the turn of the century acquiring at the expense of established powers wasn't that safe or profitable.
What about at the expense of failed states such as China once it descends into warlordism in the 1910s?
The Poles rebelled four times that was quite enough to sow some distrust. The Belarusians and Ukrainians were mostly (illiterate) peasants they didn't count.
What about after the Belarusians and Ukrainians would have become more literate?
I suppose Zaitsev means hare-like. At some point in time people were requested to assume surnames and if a confused Jew/peasant deliberated too long bored bureaucrats assigned him their own. In this case that Zaitsev was quite lucky it could have been much worse.
I know what Zaitsev and Zayats mean. I do speak Russian, after all. Anyway, thanks for this explanation.
The Jews controlled the entire Russian grain exports.
Why'd the Russian Tsars let them do this?
The number of legal Jews in cities actually reflects the percentage of Jews in Russia.
The legal Jewish population in Moscow and St. Petersburg was 1% or less whereas the total percentage of Jews in the Russian Empire was more like 5%, though.
The high number of Jews in universities shows they weren't especially restricted in this case.
I thought that Jewish quotas severely restricted--at least officially--the percentage of Jewish university students in the Russian Empire? Here's what one article says about this:

https://www.unz.com/akarlin/russian-ant ... in-action/

"In 1887, the quotas placed on the number of Jews allowed into secondary and higher education were tightened down to 10% within the Pale, 5% outside the Pale, except Moscow and Saint Petersburg, held at 3%. It was possible to evade this restrictions upon secondary education by combining private tuition with examination as an “outside student”. Accordingly, within the Pale such outside pupils were almost entirely young Jews."

I do wonder what exactly being an "outside student" actually entailed, though.

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Re: Russian Tsar Nicholas II experiences a severe head injury in 1894 and acquires a Hitler-like personality

Post by wm » 16 Jan 2020 22:36

Solzhenitsyn says it was 2 percent in St. Petersburg, that there were places where the Jews were the majority of students. It really doesn't matter.

The question is was Tsarist Russia a good place to live - for the Jews and for others (because not only Jews lived there)?
My answer is it was good enough. The Jews were able to thrive and prosper in there, not as much they wanted to but "good enough." Not good enough by today's woke standards but good enough by East European standards.
The genocidal monstrosity that replaced Tsarist Russia is the best evidence for that. Better good enough than nothing.
And I think if we have spare compassion to spend we should spend it on Russian peasants, they lived in hell.

I suppose the reason Tsars allowed Jews to control grain exports was the Jewish oligarchs who controlled it were part of his own class, the surprisingly multi-ethnic class that ruled Russia. He had no reason to be afraid of them.
And such powerful men as Leopold Kronenberg were too powerful even for the Tsar to oppose. And he didn't despite the fact Kronenberg betrayed him once.

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Re: Russian Tsar Nicholas II experiences a severe head injury in 1894 and acquires a Hitler-like personality

Post by Futurist » 20 Jan 2020 06:32

wm wrote:
16 Jan 2020 22:36
Solzhenitsyn says it was 2 percent in St. Petersburg, that there were places where the Jews were the majority of students. It really doesn't matter.

The question is was Tsarist Russia a good place to live - for the Jews and for others (because not only Jews lived there)?
My answer is it was good enough. The Jews were able to thrive and prosper in there, not as much they wanted to but "good enough." Not good enough by today's woke standards but good enough by East European standards.
Good enough, sure, but worse than in, say, Austria-Hungary or Germany or perhaps even the Balkans and/or the Ottoman Empire.
The genocidal monstrosity that replaced Tsarist Russia is the best evidence for that. Better good enough than nothing.
Oh, sure, Tsarist Russia was an absolute pussycat in comparison to both the Communists and the Nazis! Here's an article about this:

https://www.unz.com/akarlin/progressive-russian-empire/
And I think if we have spare compassion to spend we should spend it on Russian peasants, they lived in hell.
Completely agreed. Indeed, even nowadays in the US, on average, Jews live better than gentiles do (and this would probably still be true if we were only talking about white gentiles here). This is unsurprising considering that Ashkenazi Jews have a very high average IQ. (BTW, it's quite interesting that we hear a lot about white privilege in the US nowadays but not so much about Jewish privilege--and I say this as a Jew myself!)
I suppose the reason Tsars allowed Jews to control grain exports was the Jewish oligarchs who controlled it were part of his own class, the surprisingly multi-ethnic class that ruled Russia. He had no reason to be afraid of them.
And such powerful men as Leopold Kronenberg were too powerful even for the Tsar to oppose. And he didn't despite the fact Kronenberg betrayed him once.
How'd Kronenberg betray the Russian Tsar?

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