The Germans play WW 1 differently.

[TheMarcksPlan]

Other than having no idea what to do about a hostile Britain, German policy in WWI was based on far more reliable intelligence and ideas on what was possible rather than the wishful thinking that dominated WWII.

Up to Barbarossa, I would say Hitler was far more rational*/strategic than the Kaiserreich. It seems like WW1 Germany had no contingency plan for the British ultimatum on Belgium and proceeded to go to war as if the British didn't matter.

By contrast, Hitler had great success in using strategy/diplomacy to enable single-front wars until he mis-gauged the SU. Hitler and his regime were adequately prepared for a long war against France in 1940...

*rational in a sense completely independent of ends. Hitler's ends were monstrous but his means of achieving them were fairly rationale until later '41.

[Terry Duncan]

At least in WWI, the Germans had a very good idea of the forces they were facing, unlike in WWII where they had no real idea having grossly underestimated the Russian ability to field massive forces.

[maltesefalcon]

Hitler's intuition and risk taking got him as far as the victorious 1940 campaign. He correctly surmised that France and the UK would not accept an invasion of Poland. That being said he had expected the British to sue for peace once France and Poland were fait accompli.

However he badly underestimated not just Britain's resolve to carry on the fight, but their ability to do so. The Battle of Britain and Sealion were spur of the moment plans due to unforeseen circumstances.

Hitler's wishful thinking for both the UK and Soviet Union was his undoing.

[glenn239]

At least in WWI, the Germans had a very good idea of the forces they were facing, unlike in WWII where they had no real idea having grossly underestimated the Russian ability to field massive forces.

I think Hitler probably thought of the Soviet troops as being even worse than the Italians. If you think of the Red Army that way, it makes more sense why the Germans believed they could beat them. OTOH, one would have to ignore much of Russian history to think of the Russian army that way...

[glenn239]

However he badly underestimated not just Britain's resolve to carry on the fight, but their ability to do so. The Battle of Britain and Sealion were spur of the moment plans due to unforeseen circumstances.

I think that Hitler viewed the British as lacking both the resolve and the means to carry through. That is to say, it was a belief that the British were profoundly weak in 1940 that carried him into the USSR. Add that to the idea of the Red Army being even poorer in combat than the Italians, and the whole horrific mess starts to make sense.

Had Hitler actually understood the situation for real, Sealion probably in 1940 and again in 1941 if still possible...

[Futurist]

At least in WWI, the Germans had a very good idea of the forces they were facing, unlike in WWII where they had no real idea having grossly underestimated the Russian ability to field massive forces.

I think Hitler probably thought of the Soviet troops as being even worse than the Italians. If you think of the Red Army that way, it makes more sense why the Germans believed they could beat them. OTOH, one would have to ignore much of Russian history to think of the Russian army that way...

To be fair, though, the Russian military did experience some bad moments relatively recently in 1941--specifically Russia's war with Finland in 1939-1940 and, if one wants to go slightly further back, Russia's failure to conquer Poland in 1920 and Russia's collapse at Bolshevik hands in 1918.

[TheMarcksPlan]

At least in WWI, the Germans had a very good idea of the forces they were facing, unlike in WWII where they had no real idea having grossly underestimated the Russian ability to field massive forces.

Did the Germans expect to be facing 60 British divisions?

In both wars the Germans combined unequaled combat effectiveness (on land) with dumbfounding strategic blindness.

[Gjiyll]

OKH extremely overestimated British army and OKL extremely underestimated RAF. What’s the problem with Their intelligence service ?

[glenn239]

At least in WWI, the Germans had a very good idea of the forces they were facing, unlike in WWII where they had no real idea having grossly underestimated the Russian ability to field massive forces.

I think Hitler probably thought of the Soviet troops as being even worse than the Italians. If you think of the Red Army that way, it makes more sense why the Germans believed they could beat them. OTOH, one would have to ignore much of Russian history to think of the Russian army that way...

To be fair, though, the Russian military did experience some bad moments relatively recently in 1941--specifically Russia's war with Finland in 1939-1940 and, if one wants to go slightly further back, Russia's failure to conquer Poland in 1920 and Russia's collapse at Bolshevik hands in 1918.

True, but the Soviets did eventually crush the Finns after early setbacks, (unlike the Italians with the Greeks), and the German army was aware of the even more significant results in the Far East against the first-rate IJA. They had no business underestimating the Red Army.

[maltesefalcon]

OKH extremely overestimated British army and OKL extremely underestimated RAF. What’s the problem with Their intelligence service ?

Hitler only listened to the opinions of professionals if they told him what he wanted to hear and they agreed with his preconceived notions. (So glad no major world power is led by a person like that now!)

[paulrward]

Hello All

Mr. Maltesfalcon stated"

(So glad no major world power is led by a person like that now!)

I agree. I am so glad that no major world power is being led by a person who calls a
major terrorist organization " a JV team "


Respectfully :

Paul R. Ward

[T. A. Gardner]

True, but the Soviets did eventually crush the Finns after early setbacks, (unlike the Italians with the Greeks), and the German army was aware of the even more significant results in the Far East against the first-rate IJA. They had no business underestimating the Red Army.

I wouldn't rate the Japanese army as "first-rate." I'd say they were a well trained army capable of refighting WW 1. Against the Red Army, they took a pounding even as the Red Army suffered pretty serious casualties. The difference was the Soviets could afford the losses, Japan couldn't. Their whole military was very brittle that way.

What Germany needed more than anything was a much better plan to deal with non-combat attrition of equipment and manpower than they had.

[glenn239]

I wouldn't rate the Japanese army as "first-rate." I'd say they were a well trained army capable of refighting WW 1. Against the Red Army, they took a pounding even as the Red Army suffered pretty serious casualties. The difference was the Soviets could afford the losses, Japan couldn't. Their whole military was very brittle that way.

From the context of the discussion, the Germans were aware that the IJA was a serious opponent and that the Soviets had bested them twice in hard fighting. The IJA would have chopped the Italians, for example, to pieces. So why were the Germans thinking of the Soviets more like Italians than like Japanese? Because they were arrogant and racist, presumably.

What Germany needed more than anything was a much better plan to deal with non-combat attrition of equipment and manpower than they had.

Any war in Russia basically handed the keys to the world to the Americans. So what the Germans needed was a war leader that wouldn't go into Russia in the first place.

[T. A. Gardner]

From the context of the discussion, the Germans were aware that the IJA was a serious opponent and that the Soviets had bested them twice in hard fighting. The IJA would have chopped the Italians, for example, to pieces. So why were the Germans thinking of the Soviets more like Italians than like Japanese? Because they were arrogant and racist, presumably.

I think the Germans knew pretty well what the IJA was capable of. Like their having fought Soviet trained and equipped units in Spain, they had officers who had trained and equipped Chinese units that fought the IJA. It well might be arrogance on the German military's part that they thought they could steamroller Russia, and they did come close, but that sort of arrogance isn't unusual.

Any war in Russia basically handed the keys to the world to the Americans. So what the Germans needed was a war leader that wouldn't go into Russia in the first place.

True, but once Germany did what they needed to win in Russia wasn't a few more divisions of whatever. They needed the means to build infrastructure and move supplies and replacements forward in an expeditious manner with the fewest non-combat losses possible. That they had near complete control over. They should have been prepared for the weather and conditions they'd face but instead didn't do much in terms of readiness to meet those. Big blunder.