Earlier Type XXI - informed by Cold War developments

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Takao
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Re: Earlier Type XXI - informed by Cold War developments

Post by Takao » 21 Jul 2020 22:33

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Lars wrote:
21 Jul 2020 17:22
The Kriegsmarine ordered the Walter V-80 in 1939. True, the urgency wasn't there but the argument still stands. If the German had come up with the Elektroboot concept then and had ordered an experimental "Elektroboot V-80" instead they would have been on the right track in 1939 instead of November 1942.
Again, an elektroboot V-80 is not going to come close to the speeds promised by Walter boats. As early as mid-1933, Walter had been in contact with German naval authorities proposing his high speed submarine design. He received permission to undertake a project/study for his design of a high speed submarine. Walter completed and presented his design on March 15,1934. Diesel/electric engines had nowhere near the power that Walther's turbine promised. Nor would such a powerful conventional engine be as compact as the turbine.

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Re: Earlier Type XXI - informed by Cold War developments

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 21 Jul 2020 22:53

Lars wrote:
21 Jul 2020 10:56
Normally I would agree with this statement BUT the Germans were looking for a true submarine with high underwater speed from the late 1930s onwards. They looked to the Walter boats to do this.

it is not rocket science to go:

"Maybe we could do what the Walter boat promises with a large enough conventional submarine, plus a schnorkel and quadrouple the batteries. It is known technology, safer, and faster to develop".
This is what happened at the very first high-level KM conference on Walther boats - someone made the obvious point, one which Japan and Britain had already tested.

That T21 was slower than Walther boats wouldn't have been an obstacle ATL just as it wasn't OTL: there's still obvious and enormous utility to 17kn submerged speed.

The argument from urgency isn't a defense of the KM/Donitz either. Uboats are pretty much the only area in which Germany had no serious development projects between 1938 and 1942. The FW190 wasn't created because the Me109 got rinsed in combat - the LW was constantly developing new weapons in anticipation of technological advancement. Only the KM made nearly zero investment in its heartland war program over ~5 years.

It seems pretty obvious that, had Hitler refused Raeder's big ship monomania, more KM effort and development would have gone into Uboats and the T21 would have come sooner.
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Re: Earlier Type XXI - informed by Cold War developments

Post by Takao » 21 Jul 2020 23:59

TheMarcksPlan wrote:
21 Jul 2020 22:53

This is what happened at the very first high-level KM conference on Walther boats - someone made the obvious point, one which Japan and Britain had already tested.
Ummm...No.

The suggestion was not been made until March, 1943. Also, it was a Walter employee, not a Kriegsmarine officer.

TheMarcksPlan wrote:
21 Jul 2020 22:53
That T21 was slower than Walther boats wouldn't have been an obstacle ATL just as it wasn't OTL: there's still obvious and enormous utility to 17kn submerged speed.
That maybe, but the Kriegsmarine was looking for a "fast" underwater U-Boat, an 17-18 knots was not considered fast enough. Which is why some Walter designs were dropped when expected underwater performance fell to 19 knots.

TheMarcksPlan wrote:
21 Jul 2020 22:53
The argument from urgency isn't a defense of the KM/Donitz either. Uboats are pretty much the only area in which Germany had no serious development projects between 1938 and 1942. The FW190 wasn't created because the Me109 got rinsed in combat - the LW was constantly developing new weapons in anticipation of technological advancement. Only the KM made nearly zero investment in its heartland war program over ~5 years.
What alternate history have you been reading? Certainly not OTL histories.

Germany began development of the Type X minelaying submarine in 1937.
Germany began development of the Type XI U-Cruiser in 1937.
Germany began development of the Type XII "fleet" U-Boat in 1938.
Germany began development of the Type XIII (Type II replacement) in 1939.
Germany began development of the Type XIV "milch-cow" in 1940.
Not to mention the many Walter boat designs, other proposed closed-cycled propulsion, continued upgrades to the Type VII & Type IX designs.

Now that is a lot of "zero investment".

TheMarcksPlan wrote:
21 Jul 2020 22:53
It seems pretty obvious that, had Hitler refused Raeder's big ship monomania, more KM effort and development would have gone into Uboats and the T21 would have come sooner.
And you wonder why nobody takes you seriously?

Yes...Yes...Yes...If only Hitler had refused Reader's big ship monomania. Unfortunately, this is just more of your fantasy world. Guess you did not know that Raeder had prepared 3 Z-Plans, and Hitler chose the 3rd one. Which called for a total of 249 new U-Boats to be constructed.

So, there you go...Raeder's big ship monomania & Hitler calling for 249 new U-Boats.

You know, if you invested as much time into researching real history, as you do concocting alternate fantasy, you might actually learn something...instead of perpetuating myth & fiction.

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Re: Earlier Type XXI - informed by Cold War developments

Post by Takao » 22 Jul 2020 00:20

T. A. Gardner wrote:
21 Jul 2020 17:12
Walter was looking into this at Germaniawerft along with H2O2 rocket motors as a potential propellant system for torpedoes. The KM was paying scant attention at the time. This only became of serious interest to the KM when the Allies started their smack down of the Type VII and IX. The Walther H2O2 engines were short ranged and dangerous so there was little interest until the choices became desperate.
The KM was paying attention, however, they wanted a proven engine before interrupting present construction of proven U-Boats. Once the engine was proven, it was found to require a larger engine than previously thought. Once testing was underway aboard a submarine, the submarine design was found to require many hull modifications both to increase speed & control. Finally, construction of a larger chemical factory had been delayed, thus the fuels necessary to power the Walter turbines were quite limited, with no massive increase in production for the foreseeable future. Hence, there was little point into moving to mass construction of Walter boats when there was little fuel to meet the high expected demand.

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Re: Earlier Type XXI - informed by Cold War developments

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 22 Jul 2020 03:24

Takao wrote:Germany began development of the Type X minelaying submarine in 1937.
Germany began development of the Type XI U-Cruiser in 1937.
Germany began development of the Type XII "fleet" U-Boat in 1938.
Germany began development of the Type XIII (Type II replacement) in 1939.
Germany began development of the Type XIV "milch-cow" in 1940.
What a joke.

Of the types you list, only Type XII was anything like a frontline boat. The rest are support or niche vessels.

Type XII was such a serious project that it "never even got to the drawing boards, and no provisions for building any were made."
https://web.archive.org/web/20180327142 ... tional.htm

Giving the KM credit for these kinds of designs is worse than the most deluded LW fanboys talking about the Horten flying wing or other nonsense.

Between 1938 and 1945 the KM activated not a single new type of fleet Uboat, only sub-variants.

You're so committed to disagreeing with me that you're happy to look ridiculous.

As for the for the rest of your post, give sources or go home.
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Re: Earlier Type XXI - informed by Cold War developments

Post by T. A. Gardner » 22 Jul 2020 03:58

Takao wrote:
22 Jul 2020 00:20
T. A. Gardner wrote:
21 Jul 2020 17:12
Walter was looking into this at Germaniawerft along with H2O2 rocket motors as a potential propellant system for torpedoes. The KM was paying scant attention at the time. This only became of serious interest to the KM when the Allies started their smack down of the Type VII and IX. The Walther H2O2 engines were short ranged and dangerous so there was little interest until the choices became desperate.
The KM was paying attention, however, they wanted a proven engine before interrupting present construction of proven U-Boats. Once the engine was proven, it was found to require a larger engine than previously thought. Once testing was underway aboard a submarine, the submarine design was found to require many hull modifications both to increase speed & control. Finally, construction of a larger chemical factory had been delayed, thus the fuels necessary to power the Walter turbines were quite limited, with no massive increase in production for the foreseeable future. Hence, there was little point into moving to mass construction of Walter boats when there was little fuel to meet the high expected demand.
Toss in that H2O2 boats proved in every case to be seriously dangerous in operation--little different from the Me 163 really. That would have almost certainly put a huge crimp in the desire to put such boats in service. You can look to the British and Soviet attempts to use such boats as more evidence of this. It's one thing building a one off prototype with a carefully picked crew using it in controlled conditions. It's another entirely sending a boat into combat.

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Re: Earlier Type XXI - informed by Cold War developments

Post by TheMarcksPlan » 22 Jul 2020 06:45

Some background info on the KM's view of Uboat warfare against Britain in the immediate run-up to WW2:
Absorbed in the grandiose Z Plan, the OKM emphatically
disagreed with Dönitz. The senior submarine planner at the OKM, Werner Fürbringer, a rear admiral and an assistant to Raeder’s chief
of staff, Otto Schniewind, framed the response. “At the present moment,” Fürbringer wrote, “U-boat blockade of England has very
little prospect of success for Germany. Any contradictory opinion, which takes comfort in the large number of our U-boats or in the
idea that the English U-boat defense will not be effective far out in
the Atlantic, can be dismissed as misleading” and, furthermore, it would be “irresponsible to commit the valuable U-boat crews” to
such a war. “It can be taken as proven,” Fürbringer went on, “that
every English convoy, no matter whether it operates along the coast
or on the high seas, will be secured by defensive forces, fully
capable of destroying with certainty any attacking U-boat, even
under the surface.” In support of has argument, Fürbringer stressed
the effectiveness of British sonar and predicted that the British would again resort to defensive mine3elds, which had been so
deadly effective against U-boats in World War I. Until U-boats
could be made “sonar-immune,” it was pointless to even consider
starting a U-boat campaign against British commerce.
From Blair's first volume...

...which again bears on the question of Raeder's pernicious influence on Hitler, who had previously criticized the Kaiser for attempting to challenge British predominance at surface sea warfare. Had the KM been restricted to the Uboot-waffe as its primary arm, such analyses as the foregoing would have rapidly found their way into the dustbin of history. The other alternative - no significant investment in the KM - would plainly have been abandoned.
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Re: Earlier Type XXI - informed by Cold War developments

Post by Lars » 22 Jul 2020 07:43

The fuel for the Walter boats was insanely expensive, and as has been mentioned, required a lot of new chemical fuel factories.

While true that the Walter boat promosed more than the electroboats the promise from the electroboat was certainly enough.

The idea of the elctroboat was from November 1942:

"The meeting would end up in disappointment if it was not 2 engineers, Schuerer and Broecking, who realized a very simple solution, utilizing the new Walter hull design. Instead of using the lower section for Perhydrol, the idea was to install additional batteries there. This would effectively triple the battery capacity of the boat. Initial calculations showed that the performance of the new concept is far better than of the conventional U-boat, although not as good as of the Walter one. This however fully satisfied Doenitz and the development went ahead. The only problem was that the displacement of the boat was around 1600 tons - and at that time smaller boats around 1000 tons were preferred as much easier too handle and more resistant to depth-charges."

https://uboat.net/technical/electroboats2.htm

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Re: Earlier Type XXI - informed by Cold War developments

Post by Ружичасти Слон » 22 Jul 2020 13:04

Lars wrote:
21 Jul 2020 10:56
Normally I would agree with this statement BUT the Germans were looking for a true submarine with high underwater speed from the late 1930s onwards. They looked to the Walter boats to do this.

it is not rocket science to go:

"Maybe we could do what the Walter boat promises with a large enough conventional submarine, plus a schnorkel and quadrouple the batteries. It is known technology, safer, and faster to develop".
In imagination story nothing is rocket science. Everything on imaginary is possible.

In real historys many things was be mostest complicated. Mostest complicated for to make rocket science for to seem easy.

Imaginary story by tmp was not be on topic was be possible for somebody for to think something. That can to be very plausible.

Imaginary story by tmp was be on topic was be plausible for some weopan for to be success on 1942. years or 1943. years with technologies and ideas from cold war.

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Re: Earlier Type XXI - informed by Cold War developments

Post by Lars » 22 Jul 2020 14:12

Except that the British in World War ONE(!) experimented with a submarine with some of the features of the later German electro-uboats:

Faster below the surface than above.
Steamlined for below the surface performance.
No external ballast tanks, casing, or deck gun.
Large battery and large engine

While really an attack submarine designed to attack other submarines it had some of the specifics of the later German Type 21 and 23 u-boats.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_R-class_submarine

And then there is the Japanese Submarine nr. 71.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_No.71

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Re: Earlier Type XXI - informed by Cold War developments

Post by T. A. Gardner » 22 Jul 2020 17:53

Don't forget the I 201 class submarines the Japanese operationally deployed...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-201-class_submarine

One might note, that they were faster than a Type XXI at 20 knots submerged too.

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Re: Earlier Type XXI - informed by Cold War developments

Post by Takao » 22 Jul 2020 19:26

Lars wrote:
22 Jul 2020 07:43
The fuel for the Walter boats was insanely expensive, and as has been mentioned, required a lot of new chemical fuel factories.

While true that the Walter boat promosed more than the electroboats the promise from the electroboat was certainly enough.

The idea of the elctroboat was from November 1942:

"The meeting would end up in disappointment if it was not 2 engineers, Schuerer and Broecking, who realized a very simple solution, utilizing the new Walter hull design. Instead of using the lower section for Perhydrol, the idea was to install additional batteries there. This would effectively triple the battery capacity of the boat. Initial calculations showed that the performance of the new concept is far better than of the conventional U-boat, although not as good as of the Walter one. This however fully satisfied Doenitz and the development went ahead. The only problem was that the displacement of the boat was around 1600 tons - and at that time smaller boats around 1000 tons were preferred as much easier too handle and more resistant to depth-charges."

https://uboat.net/technical/electroboats2.htm
Contradicted by Rossler, pg208.
After the final design of the Type XVIII had been presented to the 'K' Office, it became evident that, because of the extensive Walter-installation and large Aurol supply, the electric installation would have to be small. Consequently, once a goat's Aurol had been expended, it's submerged performance would be poor. In March, 1943, therefore, the Walter specialist, Heep, suggested that Broeking's reviewing officer, Naval Construction Director Oelfken, examine the possibility of using the very elegant shape of the Type XVIII in an advantageous manner with conventional propulsion means. His investigations showed a possibility of trembling battery capacity over existing U-Boats by enlarging the pressure hull downwards, to give an 8-shaped cross-section extending for approximately a third of the board's length. This would give significantly higher submerged speed and a greater submerged range. During a discussion with 'K' Office concerning the Type XVIII, her stated: 'If we intend to build such a large boat and have so much space at our disposal, we can accomplish much more than hitherto by using conventional engine installations. Furthermore, if the submerged properties are considered to be more important than surface properties, then we shall naturally make use of conventional propulsion methods in ways different from those we have used in the past.'
As to the November, 1942, meeting between Walter, Schurer, Broking, Waas, and Donitz, Rossler makes no mention of any sudden leap taking by Schuster & Broking, but does cover several matters that came up in the discussion.

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Re: Earlier Type XXI - informed by Cold War developments

Post by Takao » 22 Jul 2020 19:32

T. A. Gardner wrote:
22 Jul 2020 17:53
Don't forget the I 201 class submarines the Japanese operationally deployed...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-201-class_submarine

One might note, that they were faster than a Type XXI at 20 knots submerged too.
To the best of my knowledge, the I-201 class and Ha-201 class were never operationally deployed. They had been completed and commissioned, but were still working up at the time of the surrender. Double checking their TROMs at combinedfleet.com makes no mention of them conducting war patrols.

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Re: Earlier Type XXI - informed by Cold War developments

Post by Ружичасти Слон » 22 Jul 2020 19:45

Lars wrote:
22 Jul 2020 14:12
Except that the British in World War ONE(!) experimented with a submarine with some of the features of the later German electro-uboats:

Faster below the surface than above.
Steamlined for below the surface performance.
No external ballast tanks, casing, or deck gun.
Large battery and large engine

While really an attack submarine designed to attack other submarines it had some of the specifics of the later German Type 21 and 23 u-boats.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_R-class_submarine

And then there is the Japanese Submarine nr. 71.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_No.71
It is very easy for to have ideas.

It is very easy on 80 years hindsight for to make imaginary persons what was have some ideas for to was make different decisions.

It is very easy for to think in imaginary story everything must to work on perfect.

In real world and real historys everything was not be perfect.

Imaginary story by tmp was be found on assumption and answer fixed that XXi must to work perfect and be big success on weapon system. Maybe it was can to be big success maybe it was can to be big failure. Nobody can to give evidence for each.

Imaginary story what have answer fixed is not be what if. Imaginary story what have answer fixed is fishing chase for to try on catch research and work from other persons.

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Re: Earlier Type XXI - informed by Cold War developments

Post by Takao » 22 Jul 2020 20:20

TheMarcksPlan wrote:
22 Jul 2020 03:24
What a joke.

Of the types you list, only Type XII was anything like a frontline boat. The rest are support or niche vessels.
The joke's on you. You were the one whining about how nothing was done for the U-Boat arm, when, in fact, much work was being done for the U-Boat arm. Now, you are whining about how peacetime U-Boat priorities failed to match up to wartime priorities. Silly Mr. Marcks, this was the fact for all navies...Why are the Germans the only ones that must have foresight, crystal balls, Tarot cards, chicken bones and such?

Further, you fail to take into account the simple fact that Britain was not considered an enemy until mid-1938.

TheMarcksPlan wrote:
22 Jul 2020 03:24
Type XII was such a serious project that it "never even got to the drawing boards, and no provisions for building any were made."
https://web.archive.org/web/20180327142 ... tional.htm
The Type XII did make it to the drawing board, construction specifications were issued, and the boat was in the planning stage in 'K' Office when the war started. While no contracts had been issued, according to the selected Z-Plan, Deschimag was the intended builder, delivering 3 boats by April, 1942, another 3 boats by October, 1943, with 3 more boats by June, 1945.

TheMarcksPlan wrote:
22 Jul 2020 03:24
Giving the KM credit for these kinds of designs is worse than the most deluded LW fanboys talking about the Horten flying wing or other nonsense.
And this is somehow worse than completely ignoring the work that was being done 1937-42.

I shall have to ponder on this...Are facts better or is ignorance.

TheMarcksPlan wrote:
22 Jul 2020 03:24
Between 1938 and 1945 the KM activated not a single new type of fleet Uboat, only sub-variants.
And...This is surprising you why?

In the main, no navy introduced a new type of "fleet" boat. The US submarines were all slight improvements on the same basic design. The Japanese I-Boats were all the same basic design(with a few niche classes). The same goes for the British submarines.

So why "must" Germany have a new class of fleet submarine?

Oh, yeah...They are the Uber Duber Sooper Dooper Men.

TheMarcksPlan wrote:
22 Jul 2020 03:24
You're so committed to disagreeing with me that you're happy to look ridiculous.
Quite the contrary, the facts i post make you look ridiculous...like your Raeder's big ship monomania fantasy.

Post facts, not fantasy, and I will not be in disagreement with you. Continue to post fantasy, not facts, and...well...You get what's coming to you.
TheMarcksPlan wrote:
22 Jul 2020 03:24
As for the for the rest of your post, give sources or go home.
Sources:
Eberhard Rossler
"The U-Boat: The Evolution and Technical History of German Submarines"

David Miller
"U-Boats: History, Development, and Equipment. 1914-1945"

Fritz Kohl & Eberhard Rossler
"Anatomy of the Ship: The Type XXI U-Boat"

Siegfried Breuer
"German U-Boat Type XXI"

Happy now?

Does this mean you will now go home? Since i know you will not read them, as your whole core fantasy will come crashing down.

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