WWII Conspricy Theories

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Carl Schwamberger
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Re: WWII Conspricy Theories

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 09 Sep 2020 07:08

History Learner wrote:
09 Sep 2020 04:29
...

Mainly circumstantial, based on motive and various actions; there is also a lot of evidence FDR had sent out bait ships into Southeast Asia immediately before Pearl Harbor to engender something.
Leaving the Asiatic squadron in China would have been 'bait' . Withdrawing it kind of contradicts that.

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Re: WWII Conspricy Theories

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 09 Sep 2020 07:37

Futurist wrote:
09 Sep 2020 05:41
...

If this is actually true, can you really blame FDR? After all, I fear that Nazi Germany would not have been defeated without outright US military participation in WWII, and I wonder if FDR himself privately knew that.
I don't know what he privately thought. The Army & Navy staff studies reflected in the Plan Dog memo & the RAINBOW war plans among many documents reflected the estimates Britain could not win on its own, and the fear the USSR would be defeated soon. Roosevelt was directly involved in turning all that into policy. 'The Warhawks' is a nice short primer that includes a few paragraphs on Roosevelts eventual acceptance that US participation was necessary for defeat of Germany & Facism in general. 'The Bprrowed Years' by Ketchum has 800+ pages of details on how Roosevelt signed off on & led policy that prepared the US for direct involvement. The Two Ocean Navy Act, the budget enacted in 1940 for a massive rearmament program, the call up of the Reservists and National Guard and recruitment program for one million men. were far in excess of any need for hemisphere defense. Action as President and Commander in Chief showed Roosevelt was aiming at participation in the war. At the time isolationists & America First supporters grumbled about Roosevelts secret plan to get us in the war. The numerous public actions like the mobilization of 1940, the aggressive enforcement of the Neutrality or Exclusion Zone, ect... were no secret. Its a case of Captain Obvious leading the conspiracy claimants.

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Re: WWII Conspricy Theories

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 09 Sep 2020 07:53

History Learner wrote:
09 Sep 2020 04:24
Carl Schwamberger wrote:
09 Sep 2020 03:23
In the 1940s there were several circulating in France. One was the Communists created the debacle of 1940 through sabotage of war industry and supply of the field armies, & then through persuading the reservists not to fight. The other was the army was betrayed by a cabal of right wing facist officers who purposely misdirected the battles, letting the German horde through the defense lines.
Honestly, the former is actually pretty accurate, and Horne covers it extensively in his book, To Lose a Battle.
Proved true then eh? The folks in power under Petains government assembled documentation and testimony to pin it all on the Communists and degenerates in the inquires, Riom Trials, & related activities. Trouble was it could not all be blamed on Leon Blum or whomever. To much of the 'evidence' showed otherwise for the ranks of the national levee, and a uncomfortable portion of it circled back around to the really stupid decisions made by the generals. ..and right wing politicians as well. Horne covers that extensively as too. So did Chapman, Shier, and many others in the following eighty years. Some have even pointed out the Germans had something to do with it as well :sarcasm:

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Re: WWII Conspricy Theories

Post by Kingfish » 09 Sep 2020 09:24

All of WW2 was an elaborate hoax played out on a massive Hollywood sound stage just so decades later a certain host of a certain section of a certain website devoted to said hoax could start a thread about WW2 conspiracy theories.
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Re: WWII Conspricy Theories

Post by OpanaPointer » 09 Sep 2020 10:12

History Learner wrote:
09 Sep 2020 04:29
Futurist wrote:
09 Sep 2020 03:12
History Learner wrote:
09 Sep 2020 02:58
The Pearl Harbor attack theory in my opinion is the most obvious and best supported one.
Details, please?
Mainly circumstantial, based on motive and various actions; there is also a lot of evidence FDR had sent out bait ships into Southeast Asia immediately before Pearl Harbor to engender something.
Three sailing ships manned by USN crews, to observe Japanese movements. IF he had wanted an incident that would have been a weak straw.

"Evidence" based on mind-reading will be ignored.
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Re: WWII Conspricy Theories

Post by OpanaPointer » 09 Sep 2020 10:15

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
09 Sep 2020 07:08
History Learner wrote:
09 Sep 2020 04:29
...

Mainly circumstantial, based on motive and various actions; there is also a lot of evidence FDR had sent out bait ships into Southeast Asia immediately before Pearl Harbor to engender something.
Leaving the Asiatic squadron in China would have been 'bait' . Withdrawing it kind of contradicts that.
This. The Japanese accidentally shelled USS Augusta in 1937. They deliberately sank Panay.
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Re: WWII Conspricy Theories

Post by History Learner » 10 Sep 2020 00:50

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
09 Sep 2020 07:53
History Learner wrote:
09 Sep 2020 04:24
Carl Schwamberger wrote:
09 Sep 2020 03:23
In the 1940s there were several circulating in France. One was the Communists created the debacle of 1940 through sabotage of war industry and supply of the field armies, & then through persuading the reservists not to fight. The other was the army was betrayed by a cabal of right wing facist officers who purposely misdirected the battles, letting the German horde through the defense lines.
Honestly, the former is actually pretty accurate, and Horne covers it extensively in his book, To Lose a Battle.
Proved true then eh? The folks in power under Petains government assembled documentation and testimony to pin it all on the Communists and degenerates in the inquires, Riom Trials, & related activities. Trouble was it could not all be blamed on Leon Blum or whomever. To much of the 'evidence' showed otherwise for the ranks of the national levee, and a uncomfortable portion of it circled back around to the really stupid decisions made by the generals. ..and right wing politicians as well. Horne covers that extensively as too. So did Chapman, Shier, and many others in the following eighty years. Some have even pointed out the Germans had something to do with it as well :sarcasm:
No doubt the critical factor was the Germans, yes. I think my post was taken too literally; Communist sabotage did happen was my point. To quote Horne:

"Equally depressing upon French war morale were the more tangible results of that close concomitant of Communist subversion – sabotage. During the Phoney War, numerous slowdowns of mysterious origin struck at France’s war production. Most of the worst cases of actual sabotage appear to have taken place at the Renault (tanks) and Farman (aircraft) works, those old hot-beds of trouble in Paris. A report on the damage wreaked upon Renault’s production of the B.l, France’s gravely needed new heavy tank, itemized: ‘nuts, bolts, various bits of old iron put in the gear-boxes and transmissions…filings and emery-dust in the crank-cases; saw-strokes producing incipient rupture of the oil and petrol ducts, intended to make them fall to bits after several hours’ running…’ In April 1940, a number of fatal flying accidents led investigators to the Farman factory.

Here it was found that on engines ready for delivery a brass wire acting as a lock on the nut which held the petrol feed nozzle in position was severed. After a number of hours’ flying, the nut, stripped of its lock, unscrewed itself with the engine vibration and allowed the petrol to drip on to the white-hot exhaust pipe, which eventually led to a lethal explosion. It was claimed that, under the very eyes of Sûreté investigators, a young Communist, Roger Rambaud, was caught in the act, having snipped the locking wires on seventeen out of twenty engines on the test bed. Elsewhere, at a factory producing the 25-mm. anti-aircraft gun – which the Army was to need at least as badly as the B.l tank – one act of sabotage wrote off some two hundred barrels, the normal equipment for four divisions. In the chaos that followed the fall of France, purported acts of sabotage went either unverified or unpunished. Undoubtedly many allegations were exaggerated; but, just as with the shadowy German ‘Fifth Coloumn’, the constant fear of Communist-sponsored espionage and sabotage was to prove almost as effective as the weapon itself."

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Re: WWII Conspricy Theories

Post by History Learner » 10 Sep 2020 01:00

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
09 Sep 2020 07:08
History Learner wrote:
09 Sep 2020 04:29
...

Mainly circumstantial, based on motive and various actions; there is also a lot of evidence FDR had sent out bait ships into Southeast Asia immediately before Pearl Harbor to engender something.
Leaving the Asiatic squadron in China would have been 'bait' . Withdrawing it kind of contradicts that.
OpanaPointer wrote:
09 Sep 2020 10:12

Three sailing ships manned by USN crews, to observe Japanese movements. IF he had wanted an incident that would have been a weak straw.

"Evidence" based on mind-reading will be ignored.
The U.S.S. Lanikai episode, her Skipper penned the linked account. His assessment was they were bait vessels.

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Re: WWII Conspricy Theories

Post by OpanaPointer » 10 Sep 2020 11:55

Good for him. I have every confidence that a Lt. had a good estimation of such issues. ;-)

But the big picture was that FDR wanted to avoid war in the Pacific. The Atlantic Conference had confirmed the decision of the ABC-1 Talks that policy for the US and the British was "Germany first". Every day we didn't have a war in the Pacific was a blessing for England and another day toward full readiness for the US.

The back door to war theory requires selective processing on a global scale.
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Re: WWII Conspricy Theories

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 10 Sep 2020 20:35

Kingfish wrote:
09 Sep 2020 09:24
All of WW2 was an elaborate hoax played out on a massive Hollywood sound stage just so decades later a certain host of a certain section of a certain website devoted to said hoax could start a thread about WW2 conspiracy theories.
This exposing the catspaw in a single stroke

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Re: WWII Conspricy Theories

Post by Futurist » 10 Sep 2020 20:40

Kingfish wrote:
09 Sep 2020 09:24
All of WW2 was an elaborate hoax played out on a massive Hollywood sound stage just so decades later a certain host of a certain section of a certain website devoted to said hoax could start a thread about WW2 conspiracy theories.
Was the Holocaust also staged in some Hollywood movie studios, by that logic? ;)

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Re: WWII Conspricy Theories

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 10 Sep 2020 21:15

Futurist wrote:
10 Sep 2020 20:40
Kingfish wrote:
09 Sep 2020 09:24
All of WW2 was an elaborate hoax played out on a massive Hollywood sound stage just so decades later a certain host of a certain section of a certain website devoted to said hoax could start a thread about WW2 conspiracy theories.
Was the Holocaust also staged in some Hollywood movie studios, by that logic? ;)
Not touching that one, even with some one elses ten foot pole.

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Re: WWII Conspricy Theories

Post by Futurist » 10 Sep 2020 21:19

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
10 Sep 2020 21:15
Futurist wrote:
10 Sep 2020 20:40
Kingfish wrote:
09 Sep 2020 09:24
All of WW2 was an elaborate hoax played out on a massive Hollywood sound stage just so decades later a certain host of a certain section of a certain website devoted to said hoax could start a thread about WW2 conspiracy theories.
Was the Holocaust also staged in some Hollywood movie studios, by that logic? ;)
Not touching that one, even with some one elses ten foot pole.
I was obviously joking here.

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Re: WWII Conspricy Theories

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 10 Sep 2020 21:21

Obviously. Otherwise I'd not joked about touching poles.

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Re: WWII Conspricy Theories

Post by VanillaNuns » 11 Sep 2020 23:05

RE: Pearl Harbor

There is another theory that it was Churchill and the British who intercepted information at Bletchley Park about the forthcoming Pearl Harbor attack but decided not to inform Roosevelt as they wanted the United States to enter the war as quickly as possible.

The British government even to this day have a webpage on their GCHQ (military intelligence and security) site debunking the myth.

https://www.gchq.gov.uk/information/did ... arl-harbor

Does the lady protest too much? It's not as if they would ever admit it anyway... :roll:

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