WWII Conspricy Theories

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T. A. Gardner
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Re: WWII Conspricy Theories

Post by T. A. Gardner » 14 Sep 2020 20:26

The Philadelphia Experiment, at least the one claimed, has been thoroughly disproven and is based on the claims of exactly one sailor that served on that ship. Now, if there was something like that actually tried and it sort of worked I'd bet the whole thing would have been moved to somewhere less visible and continued in earnest to make it work for real. I'd think some forlorn atoll in the Pacific...

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Re: WWII Conspricy Theories

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 14 Sep 2020 20:43

T. A. Gardner wrote:
14 Sep 2020 20:26
The Philadelphia Experiment, at least the one claimed, has been thoroughly disproven and is based on the claims of exactly one sailor that served on that ship. ...
Possibly not even that. The earliest material from the 1950s may have originated with a psychotic who never served in the military. The claim of a putative crew member seems to have originated shortly after the Hollywood movie of this name released circa 1984.

Which all misses the question concerns the effects of a experiment outted in the 1980s. When I wrote the OP I was curious about the effects of one or another CT being eventually proved real.

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Re: WWII Conspricy Theories

Post by T. A. Gardner » 15 Sep 2020 00:35

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
14 Sep 2020 20:43
T. A. Gardner wrote:
14 Sep 2020 20:26
The Philadelphia Experiment, at least the one claimed, has been thoroughly disproven and is based on the claims of exactly one sailor that served on that ship. ...
Possibly not even that. The earliest material from the 1950s may have originated with a psychotic who never served in the military. The claim of a putative crew member seems to have originated shortly after the Hollywood movie of this name released circa 1984.

Which all misses the question concerns the effects of a experiment outted in the 1980s. When I wrote the OP I was curious about the effects of one or another CT being eventually proved real.
The problem with the Philadelphia experiment is that the description of what was tried and what we now, today, know about physics says it's utterly impossible and nonsense.

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Re: WWII Conspricy Theories

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 15 Sep 2020 11:44

T. A. Gardner wrote:
15 Sep 2020 00:35
...

The problem with the Philadelphia experiment is that the description of what was tried and what we now, today, know about physics says it's utterly impossible and nonsense.
Never was a requirement here for success ;)

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Re: WWII Conspricy Theories

Post by OpanaPointer » 15 Sep 2020 14:30

T. A. Gardner wrote:
14 Sep 2020 15:28
But, at the same time most Americans were polling that they thought war with Germany was inevitable. So, I don't think the correct question is whether the US should go to war or not by itself. It appears overall that Americans were largely resigned to ending up in a war with Germany but not wanting one. This would indicate that the Germans would have to cause an incident serious enough for the US to go to war over, and that was going to happen at some point in the increasing hot U-boat campaign.
Concur. Reluctant but resigned.
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Re: WWII Conspricy Theories

Post by T. A. Gardner » 15 Sep 2020 16:58

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
15 Sep 2020 11:44
T. A. Gardner wrote:
15 Sep 2020 00:35
...

The problem with the Philadelphia experiment is that the description of what was tried and what we now, today, know about physics says it's utterly impossible and nonsense.
Never was a requirement here for success ;)
There is a requirement that it at least have some plausibility in physics and the like...

Tesla at one point wanted to transmit electricity through air without wires. It's possible but incredibly inefficient. Further, Maxwell had already published equations showing this so Tesla should have known it wouldn't work... But he tried anyway...

Well, on that note, another perennial favorite is that Germany built and tested a nuclear bomb. That one gets lots of traction.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=83596

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Re: WWII Conspricy Theories

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 15 Sep 2020 18:12

T. A. Gardner wrote:
15 Sep 2020 16:58
...

There is a requirement that it at least have some plausibility in physics and the like...
No, not really. Theres more than a few examples of ideas that went forward, failed tests, and were dropped. Missiles guided by birds anyone? As late as the 1930s Radar was dismissed as crazy. To everyones surprise it worked & worked well. Physics in that era was poorly understood and for a decade it was difficult to judge the worthwhile paths. It was only practical experimentation that sorted things out.
Well, on that note, another perennial favorite is that Germany built and tested a nuclear bomb. That one gets lots of traction.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=83596
Not quite a conspiracy as I was thinking, but... At this point it would take the discovery of a complete bomb. All the other evidence has been clawed apart throughly. But, WI in 1962 in reopening a collapsed mine the assembly site for a German Uranium bomb had been discovered. In that age just the manufacturing or assembly equipment would have been enough, plus documents if any were still on the site. Such a discovery may have changed the direction of several narratives of the last years of WWII.

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Re: WWII Conspricy Theories

Post by T. A. Gardner » 15 Sep 2020 19:05

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
15 Sep 2020 18:12
No, not really. Theres more than a few examples of ideas that went forward, failed tests, and were dropped. Missiles guided by birds anyone? As late as the 1930s Radar was dismissed as crazy. To everyones surprise it worked & worked well. Physics in that era was poorly understood and for a decade it was difficult to judge the worthwhile paths. It was only practical experimentation that sorted things out.
Radar was actually being worked on actively by many nations starting from about 1935 - 36, including the Netherlands (one set became the British Hazemeyer fire control radar), France (about 1938), Italy, Japan, the US, Russia not to mention Germany and Britain. All had radar being developed to one degree or another.

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Re: WWII Conspricy Theories

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 15 Sep 2020 19:46

Yes it was & there were many sober skeptics criticizing the waste of money. In 1939 the USN started sea trial for spotting fall of shot from a battle ships guns with radar. Three years later gunnery officers were still having trouble wrapping their heads around how this changed night combat. Much of the advanced technology routinely used in WWII was considered Alien Space Bat material in 1935. Stuff for the glossy science fiction magazines at the cheap end of the magazine stand. When it turned out some of it worked there was a recognition that everything had to be looked at. In the 19th Century large scale production of concrete and Iron/steel started. Neither floated obviously However one was practical for shipbuilding & the other much less so. But at the start it was considered insane to attempt either, and both were investigated for ship building.

If there was any factual basis for the Philadelphia experiment it might have been observation of degaussing a ship. Something that was kept a street at the time.

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Re: WWII Conspricy Theories

Post by Avalancheon » 27 Sep 2020 08:40

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
05 Sep 2020 22:41
How many are there? What comprises a CT? Describe your favorite WWII related conspiracy theory. What are the consequences if proofs emerge?
I am well versed in the WW2 conspiracy literature. I've read a great deal about various secrets, plots, and coverups that supposedly happened during the war. Some of them are unproven allegations about how or why certain events happened, while others have since been proven and accepted as the truth. The sheer number of these secret plots (real and imagined) boggles the mind.

Before I get into any of that, however, I would like to say this. There are alot of bad connotations associated with the word 'conspiracy', to the point that it has become a very strong pejorative. In our society, the word 'conspiracy theory' has become anathema to civil discussion. It is used to discourage critical thinking about certain topics, and stigmatise those who do not accept societys orthodoxy. Anyone propagating a conspiracy theory is bound to have their character attacked: They are called unpatriotic, dangerous, delusional, outrageous, etc.

Some people have internalised this so strongly that when they encounter a conspiracy theory, it literally causes their minds to shut down. They have an almost Pavlovian reaction to the word, which sets them off like a trained attack dog. In my opinion, there is no reason for conspiracys to have such a stigma attached to them. A conspiracy is simply ''an agreement to perform together an illegal, treacherous or evil act.'' A conspiracy theory about some event, therefore, is simply a theory that it resulted from some agreement.
Carl Schwamberger wrote:
05 Sep 2020 22:41
ie: Pearl Harbor. CT is Roosevelt set the Pacific Fleet up to be attacked, to bring the US into WWII. The Fleet & other military commands, scubas PI were not warned to ensure they could not dodge catastrophe. Or the appearance of innocent undefended stance.
Well, to be fair, the attack on Pearl Harbor WAS a conspiracy... But it was a conspiracy among the Japanese, not the Americans. They got together in secret and planned to launch an illegal attack against the U.S. The number of men involved in this operation ran into the tens of thousands, but only a few at the top really knew what was going on.

In this same vein, Operation Barbarossa was also a conspiracy. The Germans got together in secret and planned to launch an illegal attack against the USSR. The number of men involved in this operation ran into the millions (!), but again, only a few privileged insiders really knew what was going on.

Militarys are very good at concealing their intentions and preventing intelligence leaks. The frequently asserted claim among skeptics that 'someone would have talked' (which is incidentally the title of a famous book) falls completely flat. In these two events, both the United States and the Soviet Union had some limited intelligence of what was about to happen, but not enough for them to take action over. As a result, they were both taken completely by surprise, which had major consequences in the war that followed.

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Re: WWII Conspricy Theories

Post by Avalancheon » 27 Sep 2020 11:33

During the war, various groups and organisations claimed that there were secret plots in motion. Few of them were able to substantiate their claims at the time. Some of their claims have been verified since the end of the war, while many others remain unsubstantiated. This post will detail a number of events that were believed to have come about as a result of a conspiracy. It will be broken up into two different categorys: Those that were proven, and those that were not.

Proven Conspiracy Theory's
-Operation Himmler. Germany raided one of its own radio towers in a false flag attack, in order to provide a pre-text for invading Poland. This took place on September 1, 1941.
-Ultra. The British launched a sustained effort to break into Germanys Enigma code network. This was from September 1939 to May 1945.
-Shelling of Mainila. The Soviet Union shelled one of its own towns in a false flag attack, in order to provide a pre-text for invading Finland. This took place on November 26, 1939.
-Magic. The United States launched a sustained effort to break into Japans Purple code network. This was from January 1940 to August 1945.
-Katyn massacre. The Soviet Union executed tens of thousands of Polish prisoners for refusing to collaborate. This was from April to May of 1940.
-Operation Pike. Britain and France planned to bomb the oil fields of the Soviet Union in order to stop their support of Germany. This was suggested in the Daladier letter on February 22, 1940, but was shelved.
-German-Soviet Conference. Germany tried to persuade the Soviet Union to join the Axis, and go to war against Britain. These discussions were held from November 12-14, 1940.
-The United States deliberately provoked Japan into war by launching an oil embargo against them. This was suggested in the McCollum memorandum on October 7, 1940, and was completed after the oil embargo on August 1, 1941.
-The Holocaust. Germany embarked on a systematic campaign of genocide against the Jews and other groups, killing millions. This was from June 1941 to May 1945.
-German-Soviet Armistice. The Soviet Union attempted to sign an Armistice with Germany and redefine their borders. These discussions were held from May to June of 1943.
-The Morgenthau Plan. The United States planned to aggressively de-industrialise Germany after the end of the war. This was suggested in the Morgenthau letter of January 1944, but was shelved after news of the plan went public in September 1944.
-Operation Unthinkable. The British planned to launch a surprise attack against the Soviet Union, with or without the help of the United States. This was suggested in a memorandum on May of 1945, but was shelved.
-The Soviet Union sent spys into the United States in order to infiltrate the Manhattan Project. This was from 1943 to 1945.
-Operation Paperclip. The United States rounded up German rocket scientists for use in their own domestic programs. This was from 1945 to 1947.

Unproven Conspiracy Theory's
-Frances defeat in the battle of Arras was sealed by the British, who failed to co-operate with them. This was during the French campaign, in May 1940.
-Adolph Hitler deliberately allowed the British to escape from Dunkirk, in the hopes that they would later sign an armistice. This was during the French campaign, in May 1940.
-Winston Churchill authorised bomb raids against Germany in an attempt to provoke them into retaliating, leading the Luftwaffe to shift from airfields to the citys. This was from June 1940 to August 1940.
-Britain knew through Ultra that Germany was planning to bomb Conventry, but they took no action so as to conceal their foreknowledge. This was during the Blitz, from November 14-15 of 1940.
-The Soviet Union planned to invade Germany or one of its client states (Romania) in the summer or autumn of 1941.
-Rudolf Hess made a secret pact with the Duke of Hamilton, which would limit the scope of the war between Britain and Germany. This was on May 10, 1941.
-Germany bombed the Hungarian city of Kassel in a false flag attack, in order to bring them into the war against the Soviet Union. This was on June 26, 1941.
-The United States knew that Japan was preparing to attack Pearl Harbour, and took no overt action to prevent it. This was from October to December of 1941.
-Winston Churchill deliberately sabotaged the Dieppe raid, in order to delay the opening of a second front in Europe. This was on August 19, 1942.
-Convoy SL-125 was deliberately sent into an area teeming with German U-boats, in an attempt to distract them from the Operation Torch landings. This was from October 27-30, 1942.
-General Wladlyslaw Sikourski was murdered in a plane crash to prevent the formation of an independent Polish state after the war. This was on July 4, 1943.
-Winston Churchill worsened the Bengal famine by withdrawing shipping from the Indian ocean. This was in the summer and autumn of 1943.
-Heinrich Himmler knew about the plot to assassinate Adolph Hitler, but took no overt action to prevent it. This was in July 1944.
-The U.S. Military deliberately engineered the Port Chicago disaster in order to simulate the effects of an atomic blast. This was on ‎July 17, 1944.
-The Red Army refused to come to the aid of the Polish resistance during the Warsaw uprising, in order to weaken the nationalist groups. This was from August-October 1944.
-A spy by the codename of 'King Kong' defected to the Germans and warned them about Operation Market Garden. He may also have told them that their Enigma code network was compromised. This was in September 1944.
-Franklin Roosevelt was blackmailed by Joseph Stalin during the Yalta conference, enabling the Soviets to occupy Eastern Europe after the war. This was from February 4-11, 1945.
-Adolf Hitler escaped from his bunker in Berlin, and went on a plane to Spain, surviving the war. This was in April of 1945.
-Harry Truman authorised atomic weapons for use against Japan in order to intimidate the Soviets. This was in August 1945.
Last edited by Avalancheon on 27 Sep 2020 12:29, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: WWII Conspricy Theories

Post by OpanaPointer » 27 Sep 2020 12:04

"proven conspiracies", not "proven conspiracy theories".
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Re: WWII Conspricy Theories

Post by OpanaPointer » 27 Sep 2020 12:21

"Conspiracy advocates" and "Advocated conspiracy" (or "purported conspiracy") are better ways to referring to things like "British divers put limpet mines on the battleships at Pearl because the Japanese were lousy pilots and WSC wanted the US into the war in the Pacific so we would be automatically into the war in Europe."
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Re: WWII Conspricy Theories

Post by maltesefalcon » 27 Sep 2020 13:39

Avalancheon wrote:
27 Sep 2020 11:33

-Winston Churchill deliberately sabotaged the Dieppe raid, in order to delay the opening of a second front in Europe. This was on August 19, 1942.
Conspiracy theories only have traction if there is at least a residual element of possibility. The above statement is patently and provably false.

When Rutter was remounted as Jubilee, it lost some top level sponsorship. This resulted in the removal of key elements, namely heavy bomber support and capital ships to provide long-range artillery support. More effort was expended on cover your ass manouvers following the resultant fiasco than was spent on properly planning the actual raid.

However in both its initial version and the Jubilee revision, the plan was for a one day operation only. In and out, with troop strength the equivalent of a reinforced armoured brigade.

There was no follow up plan, whether the raid was a success or not. In any case its success or failure would neither prove nor disprove the possibility of a full scale second front in France in 1942.

Suppose Harris wanted to "prove" that Germany could be forced to capitulate by bombing and wrecking Berlin. Attempting to do so with only one aircraft (armed with conventional HE weapons) would prove nothing, whether it got there or not....

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Re: WWII Conspricy Theories

Post by Sid Guttridge » 29 Sep 2020 05:56

Hi Avalancheon,

The opposite of an "unproven conspiracy theory" is not a proven conspiracy theory. The opposite of an unproven conspiracy theory is a hard historical fact.

Indeed, the word "unproven" is entirely redundant. "Conspiracy theories" are by definition "unproven" because they lack the necessary hard historical evidence.

All your supposedly "proven conspiracy theories" were never conspiracy theories in the first place. They may have been conspiracies, but they were things that actually happened for which there is ample historical evidence. There is nothing theoretical about them.

You are pretending that "unproven conspiracy theories" are in History's "pending tray". They are not. They are in history's trash bin.

Cheers,

Sid.

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